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The logistics of SLN commerce raiding

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Re: The logistics of SLN commerce raiding
Post by Weird Harold   » Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:48 am

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Jonathan_S wrote:The equivalent of unrestricted submarine warfare isn't done (and is presumably a war crime, though I can't recall a specific quote stating that outright).


True, at least for everyone except Frontier Fleet:

Mission of Honor
Chapter Fifteen wrote:
It wasn't as if the SLN's "contingency planning" had come as a surprise, although she suspected the League would be most unhappy if the Star Empire chose to publicize some of its jucier details. There was "Case Fabius," for example, which authorized Frontier Security commissioners to arrange Frontier Fleet "peacekeeping operations" which "accidentally" destroyed any locally owned orbital infrastructure within any protectorate star system whose local authorities proved unable to "maintain order"—meaning they'd been unable to induce the owners in question to sell to the transstellars OFS had decided would control their economies henceforth. Or "Case Buccaneer," which actually authorized Frontier Security to use Frontier Fleet units—suitably disguised, of course—as "pirates," complete with vanished merchant ships whose crews were never seen again, to provoke crises in targeted Verge systems in order to justify OFS intervention "to preserve order and public safety."


The implication of "never seen again" is that ships and crews were destroyed.

In the case of SLN Commerce raiding, they might have orders to conscript ships and crews into SLMM service but are more likely just interested in denying the commerce to the GA. That means "Case Buccaneer" or something very similar -- i.e. no disguises required.
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Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just find the right questions.)
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Re: The logistics of SLN commerce raiding
Post by ldwechsler   » Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:52 am

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Weird Harold wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:The equivalent of unrestricted submarine warfare isn't done (and is presumably a war crime, though I can't recall a specific quote stating that outright).

True, at least for everyone except Frontier Fleet:

"Mission of Honor Chapter Fifteen"
It wasn't as if the SLN's "contingency planning" had come as a surprise, although she suspected the League would be most unhappy if the Star Empire chose to publicize some of its jucier details. There was "Case Fabius," for example, which authorized Frontier Security commissioners to arrange Frontier Fleet "peacekeeping operations" which "accidentally" destroyed any locally owned orbital infrastructure within any protectorate star system whose local authorities proved unable to "maintain order"—meaning they'd been unable to induce the owners in question to sell to the transstellars OFS had decided would control their economies henceforth. Or "Case Buccaneer," which actually authorized Frontier Security to use Frontier Fleet units—suitably disguised, of course—as "pirates," complete with vanished merchant ships whose crews were never seen again, to provoke crises in targeted Verge systems in order to justify OFS intervention "to preserve order and public safety."


The implication of "never seen again" is that ships and crews were destroyed.

In the case of SLN Commerce raiding, they might have orders to conscript ships and crews into SLMM service but are more likely just interested in denying the commerce to the GA. That means "Case Buccaneer" or something very similar -- i.e. no disguises required.


When you can do whatever you want, law is irrelevant. Byrd, Crandall and Filareta were all carrying out illegal operations. The mandarins knew it. It didn't matter until they went south.
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Re: The logistics of SLN commerce raiding
Post by cthia   » Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:56 am

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Question. Controlling a planet's orbitals means the planet has to surrender. If a planet surrenders, can its allies hyper in and retake, after surrendering? Or as a professor giving an exam says when time runs out, "All pencils down please," or in this case, wedges. If Honor had been late at the BoM and Manticore had surrendered,* would Honor have been able to drive them off after hypering in?

If so, then getting a planet to surrender hasn't done anything for the conqueror, but for the loser.

And if there is nothing the allied governments can do for a while to retake the surrendered planet, then can the SLN overwhelm a weak system and use it as a base?

* In Manticore's case, who is responsible for surrendering? Queen Elizabeth?

Pardon my gray matter that forces my eyes to see gray areas that probably aren't gray, thus refuses to compute.

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Last edited by cthia on Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: The logistics of SLN commerce raiding
Post by Jonathan_S   » Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:00 am

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Weird Harold wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:The equivalent of unrestricted submarine warfare isn't done (and is presumably a war crime, though I can't recall a specific quote stating that outright).


True, at least for everyone except Frontier Fleet:
Right, I forgot that under than contingency they were acting like pirates and so they couldn't be letting crews go that might have seen these were SLN FF warships doing the raiding and not some lashed up overarmed under defended 4th hand proto-frigate pirates got their hands on.
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Re: The logistics of SLN commerce raiding
Post by Jonathan_S   » Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:05 am

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cthia wrote:Question. Controlling a planet's orbitals means the planet has to surrender. If a planet surrenders, can its allies hyper in and retake, after surrendering? Or as a professor giving an exam says when time runs out, "All pencils down please," or in this case, wedges. If Honor had been late at the BoM and Manticore had surrendered,* would Honor have been able to drive them off after hypering in?

If so, then getting a planet to surrender hasn't done anything for the conqueror, but for the loser.

And if there is nothing the allied governments can do for a while to retake the surrendered planet, then can the SLN overwhelm a weak system and use it as a base?

* In Manticore's case, who is responsible for surrendering? Queen Elizabeth?

Pardon my gray matter that forces my eyes to see gray areas that probably isn't gray, thus refuses to compute.
Captial systems are probably a bit different. If you capture Queen Elizabeth and the palace the surrender demands would be for the whole Star Empire - so the RMN would be ordered to stand down. That makes it just a bit harder to recapture the place.

But for normal planets of course you can recapture them. Heck we was that during Thunderbolt when Haven recaptured all the systems Manticore had captured during Buttercup.
Of course you'd expect the recaptured system's military and industrial facilities to be much the worse for wear by the time you recaptured it - so hopefully you weren't relying on it as a major yard or supplier.
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Re: The logistics of SLN commerce raiding
Post by cthia   » Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:18 am

cthia
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Weird Harold wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:The equivalent of unrestricted submarine warfare isn't done (and is presumably a war crime, though I can't recall a specific quote stating that outright).


True, at least for everyone except Frontier Fleet:

Mission of Honor
Chapter Fifteen wrote:
It wasn't as if the SLN's "contingency planning" had come as a surprise, although she suspected the League would be most unhappy if the Star Empire chose to publicize some of its jucier details. There was "Case Fabius," for example, which authorized Frontier Security commissioners to arrange Frontier Fleet "peacekeeping operations" which "accidentally" destroyed any locally owned orbital infrastructure within any protectorate star system whose local authorities proved unable to "maintain order"—meaning they'd been unable to induce the owners in question to sell to the transstellars OFS had decided would control their economies henceforth. Or "Case Buccaneer," which actually authorized Frontier Security to use Frontier Fleet units—suitably disguised, of course—as "pirates," complete with vanished merchant ships whose crews were never seen again, to provoke crises in targeted Verge systems in order to justify OFS intervention "to preserve order and public safety."


The implication of "never seen again" is that ships and crews were destroyed.

In the case of SLN Commerce raiding, they might have orders to conscript ships and crews into SLMM service but are more likely just interested in denying the commerce to the GA. That means "Case Buccaneer" or something very similar -- i.e. no disguises required.

Nice textev Harold. That one is hot, and it supports where I was going with this can of worms.

In the textev you supplied, Frontier Fleet was just being assh— err wholeasses, they didn't have to be so brutal.

However, in the case with Manticore, it seems it would be prudent for them to destroy all freighters traveling alone, unless they plan to collect and accrue crew from every successful raid. It seems logical that they couldn't, and wouldn't, spare a ship to travel all the way back to League space to deliver barbarians, when every ship may be needed. Not that they are realistically going to collect many prizes, but still, they have to have established some sort of contingency plan before setting out on their grandiose swashbuckling scheme.

And they certainly can't drop off POWs in a "neutral system" at the risk of being spotted doing so. The system may be neutral, but the GA ships spotting them aren't. So, no prisoners. No evidence.

Besides, where is there a neutral system in Haven space far away from GA traffic?

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Last edited by cthia on Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: The logistics of SLN commerce raiding
Post by cthia   » Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:26 am

cthia
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Jonathan_S wrote:
cthia wrote:Question. Controlling a planet's orbitals means the planet has to surrender. If a planet surrenders, can its allies hyper in and retake, after surrendering? Or as a professor giving an exam says when time runs out, "All pencils down please," or in this case, wedges. If Honor had been late at the BoM and Manticore had surrendered,* would Honor have been able to drive them off after hypering in?

If so, then getting a planet to surrender hasn't done anything for the conqueror, but for the loser.

And if there is nothing the allied governments can do for a while to retake the surrendered planet, then can the SLN overwhelm a weak system and use it as a base?

* In Manticore's case, who is responsible for surrendering? Queen Elizabeth?

Pardon my gray matter that forces my eyes to see gray areas that probably isn't gray, thus refuses to compute.
Captial systems are probably a bit different. If you capture Queen Elizabeth and the palace the surrender demands would be for the whole Star Empire - so the RMN would be ordered to stand down. That makes it just a bit harder to recapture the place.

But for normal planets of course you can recapture them. Heck we was that during Thunderbolt when Haven recaptured all the systems Manticore had captured during Buttercup.
Of course you'd expect the recaptured system's military and industrial facilities to be much the worse for wear by the time you recaptured it - so hopefully you weren't relying on it as a major yard or supplier.

Ah, IC. Thanks.

I considered the recapturing that Haven did. But I thought that came after the resumption of hostilities. Technically putting it in a new war. But I'm always mangling time lines.

Happened in school as well. I couldn't quite remember dates of history. :roll:

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: The logistics of SLN commerce raiding
Post by noblehunter   » Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:31 am

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cthia wrote:Nice textev Harold. That one is hot, and it supports where I was going with this can of worms.

In the textev you supplied, Frontier Fleet was just being assh— err wholeasses, they didn't have to be so brutal.

However, in the case with Manticore, it seems it would be prudent for them to destroy all freighters traveling alone, unless they plan to collect and accrue crew from every successful raid. It seems logical that they couldn't, and wouldn't, spare a ship to travel all the way back to League space to deliver barbarians, when every ship may be needed. Not that they are realistically going to collect many prizes, but still, they have to have established some sort of contingency plan before setting out on their grandiose swashbuckling exercise.

And they certainly can't drop off POWs in a "neutral system" at the risk of being spotted doing so. The system may be neutral, but the GA ships spotting them aren't. So, no prisoners. No evidence.

Besides, where is there a neutral system in Haven space far away from GA traffic?


Any one remember what Giscard did during his foray into Silesia? I know he was disappearing ships but I don't remember what he did with the crews.

Happened in school as well. I couldn't quite remember dates of history. :roll:


That's why I went into social and cultural history. Dates only matter to the nearest decade.
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Re: The logistics of SLN commerce raiding
Post by ldwechsler   » Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:43 am

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The implication of "never seen again" is that ships and crews were destroyed.

In the case of SLN Commerce raiding, they might have orders to conscript ships and crews into SLMM service but are more likely just interested in denying the commerce to the GA. That means "Case Buccaneer" or something very similar -- i.e. no disguises required.[/quote]
Nice textev Harold. That one is hot, and it supports where I was going with this can of worms.

In the textev you supplied, Frontier Fleet was just being assh— err wholeasses, they didn't have to be so brutal.

However, in the case with Manticore, it seems it would be prudent for them to destroy all freighters traveling alone, unless they plan to collect and accrue crew from every successful raid. It seems logical that they couldn't, and wouldn't, spare a ship to travel all the way back to League space to deliver barbarians, when every ship may be needed. Not that they are realistically going to collect many prizes, but still, they have to have established some sort of contingency plan before setting out on their grandiose swashbuckling exercise.

And they certainly can't drop off POWs in a "neutral system" at the risk of being spotted doing so. The system may be neutral, but the GA ships spotting them aren't. So, no prisoners. No evidence.

Besides, where is there a neutral system in Haven space far away from GA traffic?[/quote]

Talk about opening a can of worms. If a Sollie warship made a freighter disappear, you can bet there would be records of that on the ship.

If captured, any usually ships are ordered NOT to destroy computer records, they would stand trial. Murder would bring a death penalty.

And, of course, even if they managed to disappear all the records, all it would take is one crew member willing to sell out, perhaps for citizenship and a large amount of cash, to the GA.

Quizzing the officers with a treecat present would also be an interesting possibility. All you have to do is ask whether or not they destroyed a ship.

I doubt the Sollie captains would be THAT stupid.

And, of course, vids of confessions, etc., would go all through the League. And if the top naval people told them to do things like that, there could be even more problems.
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Re: The logistics of SLN commerce raiding
Post by Jonathan_S   » Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:07 pm

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cthia wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:Captial systems are probably a bit different. If you capture Queen Elizabeth and the palace the surrender demands would be for the whole Star Empire - so the RMN would be ordered to stand down. That makes it just a bit harder to recapture the place.

But for normal planets of course you can recapture them. Heck we was that during Thunderbolt when Haven recaptured all the systems Manticore had captured during Buttercup.
Of course you'd expect the recaptured system's military and industrial facilities to be much the worse for wear by the time you recaptured it - so hopefully you weren't relying on it as a major yard or supplier.

Ah, IC. Thanks.

I considered the recapturing that Haven did. But I thought that came after the resumption of hostilities. Technically putting it in a new war. But I'm always mangling time lines.

Happened in school as well. I couldn't quite remember dates of history. :roll:

I think there were a couple inhabited systems along the frontier prior to Buttercup that did change hands more than once during the first phase of the war - but I don't swear to it.

But you are correct that the ones I mentioned were just after the end of the (lengthy) ceasefire. Technically because peace was never declared that should be considered part of the same war - not a new one (though I've been known to use the shorthand of 2nd war when talking about the resumed hostilities).


Still I can't see any way rules of war would be codified, or accepted, where an inhabited system that surrendered couldn't be recaptured.
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