The rest of Rose's out of order snippet

munroburton wrote:I am no expert and can only claim a passing interest. My grandmother was the royalist in the family. I won't say whether she was Jacobite or Windsor.

Plus anyone who's ever played Crusader Kings quickly comes to grasp the basic rules of various kinds of succession systems(and how to illegally subvert them and win!).

cthia wrote:But of course, anyone on Honor's list could succeed Hamish if his own successors are devastated, much as the danger shown with the success of Oyster Bay and what happened to Honor's family.

No, they could not. The Earldom of White Haven cannot ever pass to Faith, James or Sarah, etc.. by inheritance. It would run through Hamish's brother and then cousins before eventually becoming extinct if no one descended from the first Earl White Haven was left.

And wouldn't Honor's relatives, by marriage, have to be contenders for Harrington Steading by desperate circumstance, if Honor and all of her blood is somehow targeted and exterminated by the MAlign?

Not by marriage, no. Dynasties can and do die away. If Honor's bloodline is exterminated, then the Harrington titles go extinct and those respective lands revert to the Crown/Sword.

https://jeremyturcotte.wordpress.com/20 ... -peerages/

IIRC, this was a minor problem in Manticore - Elizabeth had to pull some strings to make sure the Harrington Earldom was inherited by Honor's cousin.

This may be because in the British system, someone who is raised to the nobility for the first time cannot pass their titles on to siblings. Horatio Nelson is an example - when he died, he had no male children and his titles officially went extinct.

The solution? Much as Honor's Elizabeth probably did, a special dispensation was created mentioning Horatio's father, sisters and awarding the re-created title to his living brother.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earl_Nels ... .281798.29

But in the case of Harrington Steading and its all encompassing political importance on Grayson, PBIX could ill afford to allow Harrington Steading to die that fate, much as Beth pulled stings to that same effect on Manticore to save Harrington's Earldom, that you mentioned. No?

But I suppose, by Grayson law, there simply has to be something to work with. Though I can't actually see PBIX not circumventing procedure in the face of precedence somehow in the case of HS.

How badly would the loss of Harrington Steading impact Grayson politics and the Mayhew Restoration?


.

There is one Grayson precedent. Burdette steading, one of the original five, somehow passed from the Burdette clan to the Fitzclarence clan(the unreliable Wikia claims there were at least 40 generations of Burdette steadholders before this happened).

In the event of Harrington extinction, the Projector might transfer the Harrington steading to the Clinkscales clan. Honor did swear a clan vow between them.

munroburton wrote:There is one Grayson precedent. Burdette steading, one of the original five, somehow passed from the Burdette clan to the Fitzclarence clan(the unreliable Wikia claims there were at least 40 generations of Burdette steadholders before this happened).

In the event of Harrington extinction, the Projector might transfer the Harrington steading to the Clinkscales clan. Honor did swear a clan vow between them.

Burdette steading probably passed to the Fitzclarence line at the time of Grayson Civil War when the 53 were martyred. Also you have Owens Steading passing to the Hearns line.

munroburton wrote:In the event of Harrington extinction, the Projector might transfer the Harrington steading to the Clinkscales clan. Honor did swear a clan vow between them.

Considering that was Benjy's plan in the first place before they hit on the idea of getting Honor's parents to have more kids, and that was well before the vow, I would say it is a close to guaranteed as we can get.

zyffyr wrote:

munroburton wrote:In the event of Harrington extinction, the Projector might transfer the Harrington steading to the Clinkscales clan. Honor did swear a clan vow between them.

Considering that was Benjy's plan in the first place before they hit on the idea of getting Honor's parents to have more kids, and that was well before the vow, I would say it is a close to guaranteed as we can get.

You might note that Abigail Hearns is Miss Owens. Many --- probably more than half --- of all Grayson Steadings have passed to a collateral line or transferred to an entirely new line when the original family died out. Abigail's father is a direct descendant of the original Steadholder Owens, but through a daughter in a case in which there was no direct male heir (happened a lot on pre-Allison Grayson).

The fact that Katherine is not genetically Honor's is an issue only because she is the steadholder instead of Hamish. Under Grayson law, all legitimate children of the holder of a title, regardless of which of the titleholder's wives bore the child, are his legitimate heirs. The existence of female steadholders is likely to, um . . . complicate that neat little system, however.

In the case of Grayson inheritance it likely passes to the husbandof the eldest daughter if there are no male heirs.
Given the lack ofGeayson males the situation would have come up more than once.

As for WhiteHaven, an entailment could take Raoul out of the line, or swich the two children at least.
Such as Children of the senior wife take precedence.

Wouldn't surprise me to find something along those lines already in the Grayson inheritance laws to act as a guidline for the SEM.

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Annachie wrote:In the case of Grayson inheritance it likely passes to the husbandof the eldest daughter if there are no male heirs.
Given the lack ofGeayson males the situation would have come up more than once.

As for WhiteHaven, an entailment could take Raoul out of the line, or swich the two children at least.
Such as Children of the senior wife take precedence.

Wouldn't surprise me to find something along those lines already in the Grayson inheritance laws to act as a guidline for the SEM.

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Nope. Passes to the eldest son of the eldest daughter; her husband holds the title of Steadholder Regent for his son. Of course, that was under the old constitution when women couldn't inherit in their own right. Today, she'd become Steadholder and her husband would be Steadholder Consort, a title pioneered by one Hamish Alexander-Harrington.

Raoul cannot be taken out of the succession on Grayson without an act of the Keys, and it would require a super majority to do the trick. Honor cannot disinherit him under Grayson law, either; he can lose his place in the succession only if attainted for treason or at Honor's request, supported by the aforesaid super majority. Other than that, his place in Harrington Steading cannot be altered. In theory, he doesn't even have the legal right to abdicate, although there's never been a case in which a steadholder attempted to abdicate and was not supported by the Keys. Of course, you could count the number of steadholders who voluntarily abdicated on the fingers of one hand, and the thumb doesn't count.

Katherine would be known as Miss Harrington on Grayson, as (in effect) a princess of the blood, but she would not hold a place in the Harrington succession. That would be: Raoul, Faith, and James (and the Graysons would be very happy if Steadholder Harrington got busy and gave them some additional spare heirs Sometime Real Soon Now).

The only reason Faith and James are still in the succession is because Benjamin got the Keys to pass special legislation recognizing them as Honor's heirs when everyone thought she was dead and no one gave any thought to stipulating that they'd be taken back out of the succession if she turned up alive because they all knew she was dead. No one has a clue (under the present constitution) how they could be taken back out, and everyone will be just as happy to let that sleeping canine go right on snoring, thank you. Raoul displaces Katherine because he is a direct heir of Honor's body and Katherine isn't, but Faith and James will always be in the succession and their spots will descend to their children, although by the time their kids would be thinking about the succession, they'd probably be many, many places from the Harrington Key, given Honor's longevity and expected fertility.

Unless, of course, it should happen that something like a gallant death in combat cut short the aforesaid longevity and fertility. Just sayin'.

Nor can Hamish change the White Haven succession without approval of Parliament, although a simple majority in the Lords would be sufficient supportin Manticore. Raoul can always abdicate his position in the succession, but not until he attains his legal majority. Until that time, he's Hamish's legal heir, followed by Katherine, followed by Willie.

"Unless, of course, it should happen that something like a gallant death in combat cut short the aforesaid longevity and fertility. Just sayin'."
Don't you dare.

Thanks for clearing that up, RFC!

runsforcelery wrote:"Unless, of course, it should happen that something like a gallant death in combat cut short the aforesaid longevity and fertility. Just sayin'."

Daryl wrote:Don't you dare.

I ain't above begging. Pls! Pls! Pls! Don't take the girl.