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Honorverse ramblings and musings

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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by Weird Harold   » Mon Aug 07, 2017 5:49 am

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The E wrote:I would really like to see that passage. The only references I could find point out that the Meyerdahl mods do not have an appreciable effect on temperament (as opposed to other, more extreme mods developed during the final war or afterwards).


I suspect is in In Enemy Hands, but couldn't find it quickly. Honor does a lot of introspective stuff about the inability to perform her duty and her responsibilities and such. Most of the information about Meyerdahl Betas (and Wintons) comes from Allison in Echoes of Honor but not the information about sublimating aggression into "Duty."
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Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just find the right questions.)
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by munroburton   » Mon Aug 07, 2017 7:36 am

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You've got the wrong end of the stick. Meyerdahl Betas are noted for being even-tempered compared to other kinds of gene mods. However, it is also mentioned several times that they have an increased metabolism(e.g. Honor and Alfred are both habitual midnight snackers). So what's actually happening is:

hangry
ˈhaŋɡri/
adjectiveinformal
bad-tempered or irritable as a result of hunger.

:lol:
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by cthia   » Mon Aug 07, 2017 10:00 am

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Weird Harold wrote:
The E wrote:Was that documented somewhere in the actual text of the novels, or just in your head? Because nowhere in the actual novels is "heightened aggression" or "lessened impulse control" mentioned as a side-effect of the Meyerdahl mods (they are specifically noted as lacking the behavioural side effects of other intelligence enhancemeent mods).


While Cthia has inferred more than is implied, there is textev that Honor, specifically, and Myerdahl Betas in general need to channel their aggression through discipline, structure, and Duty. They can be loose cannons when discipline, structure, and/or Duty are lost.

Unfortunately, I cannot remember where that bit of information is to be found.

I am certain that I read it in textev some where as well, and in the last couple of months. It is unfortunate that I can't remember exactly where either but I have been perusing no less that eight books in the last two months. I'll put a personal APB out on it.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by cthia   » Mon Aug 07, 2017 10:09 am

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munroburton wrote:You've got the wrong end of the stick. Meyerdahl Betas are noted for being even-tempered compared to other kinds of gene mods. However, it is also mentioned several times that they have an increased metabolism(e.g. Honor and Alfred are both habitual midnight snackers). So what's actually happening is:

hangry
ˈhaŋɡri/
adjectiveinformal
bad-tempered or irritable as a result of hunger.

:lol:

I don't doubt that. Compared to other gene mods, I'm sure she is even tempered. I never got the feeling that Honor was quick tempered - but even tempered. My take on it is that Meyerdahl Betas have a real long fuse, except that when it goes, it really blows.

IOW, when Honor's fuse blows she has more like a tendency to SNAP, CRACKLE and POP!

It's simply a personal thought that when she's specifically suffering fools that it becomes more like nitroglycerin.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by pnakasone   » Mon Aug 07, 2017 6:02 pm

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Honor gets in trouble because she dos not care who you are or who you think you are. If you get in her way of her doing what she sees as her duty she will steamroller over you.
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by ldwechsler   » Mon Aug 07, 2017 7:47 pm

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pnakasone wrote:Honor gets in trouble because she dos not care who you are or who you think you are. If you get in her way of her doing what she sees as her duty she will steamroller over you.



Actually she seldom behaves that way. When she reamed out the High Ridge 5th Lord it was totally unexpected. In her early years Honor often went along.

Later on she had too much rank to need to steamroller. And in general she was the voice of reason. That's why she was made a diplomat to deal with Haven.
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by cthia   » Mon Aug 07, 2017 7:53 pm

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ldwechsler wrote:
pnakasone wrote:Honor gets in trouble because she dos not care who you are or who you think you are. If you get in her way of her doing what she sees as her duty she will steamroller over you.



Actually she seldom behaves that way. When she reamed out the High Ridge 5th Lord it was totally unexpected. In her early years Honor often went along.

Later on she had too much rank to need to steamroller. And in general she was the voice of reason. That's why she was made a diplomat to deal with Haven.
Do Pardon my boldness.

As long as we agree that diplomats are not off the menu.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by cthia   » Tue Aug 08, 2017 7:24 am

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PeterZ wrote:His economic advice was to trade with an enemy. Such trade would help that enemy much more than it would help Grayson. That trade wouldn't have fostered peace. As a military policy wonk, he should understand the motives of potential enemies. He failed miserably in his fields of expertise.
pnakasone wrote:I feel the hard part would be proving that Honor's slap alone caused his career and social damage. Some one like Houseman would have loads of enemies that where waiting for him to slip up and make a major fool of himself to destroy him. Also he would have bodies buried in his closet that he would not want dug up and brought out in the light of day of a trial.
Jonathan_S wrote:Especially since, even without her slap, he was on record as advocating that Grayson dramatically cut defense spending and start trading with Masada (that would disproportionately help Masada) just before Masada launched an unprovoked attack and coupe attempt against Grayson, including abuse of POWs and attempts to perform Edict violating terror bombardments. And houseman got censured for ignoring the head of diplomatic mission's direct orders due to his own ill informed beliefs.

That might have been a positive in certain sectors - if he'd been right - but since he was immediately and graphically proved wrong he'd inflicted quite enough harm on his own reputation before he panicked and inspired Honor to smack him down (literally).


Au contraire mon frère.

Houseman was simply spewing out all of the economic advise and options he saw. That is what he was there for. He was simply laying out the big picture, the complete and comprehensive economic picture that Houseman knew was only available and clear to the mind of a brilliant economist.

I don't know how many times I've heard in this very forum that people are only attentive to whatever is going on in their own neck of the woods. Grayson was a planet with a bunch of bible thumping backwoods maniacs. Houseman could not have been blamed for not knowing anything beyond that. Even Honor didn't know a lot of the most significant data on Grayson and the admiral had to clue her in. Houseman could have been charged for being inadequately prepared or ill informed for the ultimate task that lay before him, but I'm sorry, the oversight is the fault of the delegation and/or the inappropriate handling of the mission before even leaving Manticoran orbit.

Picture Houseman with all the facts, that he has as an economist understands things, and when he crunches the numbers he sees...

:o "Oh My God! There's going to be enough profit made in this system to support three or more planets! And there's only two!"



****** *

The human element is always an ignored player.

The disconnect is that most people fight over resources. The Solarian League, the Andermani, the Peeps. All of these governments expansion are all about resources. The Short Victorious War was all about the Peep's need to feed its people and give the system an economic boost to appease all of the entities with their hands out. Houseman merely thought the Yeltsin System's war was predicated on that same common, human notion of greed and need. Houseman was simply trying to point out that a war that was obviously based on need or greed would no longer be necessary for this system. That the result of Manticore's assistance would manufacture more than enough to fill the tills of both planets and their GNP pots to overflowing. Houseman didn't understand that this was a holy war of illogic proportions. And I question whether he was adequately primed for that reality. Honor hadn't even been adequately prepared for it until en route. And even then Honor was ill prepared. Houseman was simply inappropriate for the job. Was Houseman even a Christian, believing in a God himself? Because If he wasn't then that fact hammers another nail home in the coffin of his "appropriateness."

****** *


pnakasone wrote:Let us be fair to the idiot. The history and reasons behind the conflict between Grayson and Masada where something he could not really wrap his mind around. To him they where trivial compared to what could be gained if they just traded with each other.
ABSOLUTELY! A manifestation of the human element.


The absolute bottom line best economic scenario for the system would be what Houseman was laying out. The information that Houseman was imparting was crucial for him to do so. Lest he ever be judged for being less than comprehensive. It had simply been a wrongful and hasty conclusion to assume that Houseman was ultimately suggesting or advocating any military strategies. But, questioning his comprehensive and sound analysis—therefore his brightness—impugned his honor, and rightfully so. As a result, Houseman proceeded to make it worst by attempting to defend his intelligence and his honor, his reputation and career, with more project analysis. IOW, Houseman was attempting to impart the knowledge, he wasn't in control of what the Graysons ultimately decided to do with that knowledge.


I simply don't think that Houseman was adequately briefed. Or at the very least, he simply wasn't the best man for the job. Again, the fault of his employers.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by cthia   » Tue Aug 08, 2017 5:17 pm

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pnakasone wrote:Honor gets in trouble because she dos not care who you are or who you think you are. If you get in her way of her doing what she sees as her duty she will steamroller over you.

Judging by the very strong images I just got, I'm going to go out on a limb and claim that this must be one of the earliest and strongest mental images Honor has perfected to send to Nimitz, of her steamrollering over Pavel Young.

Immediately Nimitz must have sent her an updated image of him riding right there on her shoulder, snarling and waving talons in the air as she drove the unwieldy beast like a Salamander out of Hell through the hot Manticoran streets bearing down on Young's ass!

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by pnakasone   » Tue Aug 08, 2017 10:16 pm

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cthia wrote:
pnakasone wrote:Let us be fair to the idiot. The history and reasons behind the conflict between Grayson and Masada where something he could not really wrap his mind around. To him they where trivial compared to what could be gained if they just traded with each other.
ABSOLUTELY! A manifestation of the human element.


The absolute bottom line best economic scenario for the system would be what Houseman was laying out. The information that Houseman was imparting was crucial for him to do so. Lest he ever be judged for being less than comprehensive. It had simply been a wrongful and hasty conclusion to assume that Houseman was ultimately suggesting or advocating any military strategies. But, questioning his comprehensive and sound analysis—therefore his brightness—impugned his honor, and rightfully so. As a result, Houseman proceeded to make it worst by attempting to defend his intelligence and his honor, his reputation and career, with more project analysis. IOW, Houseman was attempting to impart the knowledge, he wasn't in control of what the Graysons ultimately decided to do with that knowledge.


I simply don't think that Houseman was adequately briefed. Or at the very least, he simply wasn't the best man for the job. Again, the fault of his employers.


I do not think it would have mattered how well he would have been briefed on the situation it would not have fit in his reality of how things really should work. He was completely unable to understand the human factors of situations. He should have never been a part of a diplomatic party but be left to write papers and do lectures.

Agree it is the fault of who ever put him in the position to make a fool of himself in the first place.
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