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Fleet Numbering and Assignments

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Fleet Numbering and Assignments
Post by Fox2!   » Thu Apr 20, 2017 12:42 am

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We've seen numerous fleets discussed at various points, some explicitly, some only by reference or implication. But I've not seen an enumeration of the various RMN fleets.

From information provided, and the mathematical "Law of the Included Middle", I have identified the following fleet organization:

Royal Manticoran Navy Numbered Fleets

1 Home Fleet (Manticore A, Manticore, Sphinx)
2 Gryphon (Manticore B, Gryphon)
3 Trevor’s Star (Originally part of offensive force to take from PRH)
4 Medusa?
5 Fleet Train Logistics
6 Trevor’s Star Offensive force? Disestablished? (this was the hammer to 3rd fleet's anvil in the coordinated hyperspace/wormhole attack on Trevor's Star to liberate it from the PRH).
7 Unknown
8 Main Offensive Force
9 Silesia Quadrant?
10 Talbot Quadrant

HoS states that the Gryphon Fleet District was disestablished. Does that mean that the associated numbered fleet was also disestablished, and its assets and responsibilities assumed by Home Fleet?

Does the Seventh Fleet exist as a force?
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Re: Fleet Numbering and Assignments
Post by Robert_A_Woodward   » Thu Apr 20, 2017 2:21 am

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Fox2! wrote:We've seen numerous fleets discussed at various points, some explicitly, some only by reference or implication. But I've not seen an enumeration of the various RMN fleets.

From information provided, and the mathematical "Law of the Included Middle", I have identified the following fleet organization:

Royal Manticoran Navy Numbered Fleets

1 Home Fleet (Manticore A, Manticore, Sphinx)
2 Gryphon (Manticore B, Gryphon)
3 Trevor’s Star (Originally part of offensive force to take from PRH)
4 Medusa?
5 Fleet Train Logistics
6 Trevor’s Star Offensive force? Disestablished? (this was the hammer to 3rd fleet's anvil in the coordinated hyperspace/wormhole attack on Trevor's Star to liberate it from the PRH).
7 Unknown
8 Main Offensive Force
9 Silesia Quadrant?
10 Talbot Quadrant

HoS states that the Gryphon Fleet District was disestablished. Does that mean that the associated numbered fleet was also disestablished, and its assets and responsibilities assumed by Home Fleet?

Does the Seventh Fleet exist as a force?


While 2nd fleet existed when the 1st war started, by the time of _Flag in Exile_, there were no major RMN formations at Yeltsin's star (i.e., Grayson). Thus, I suspect that if there was a 2nd fleet, it wasn't there. For that matter, we don't know if 3rd fleet was reconstituted after tBNBiHH.
----------------------------
Beowulf was bad.
(first sentence of Chapter VI of _Space Viking_ by H. Beam Piper)
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Re: Fleet Numbering and Assignments
Post by pnakasone   » Thu Apr 20, 2017 5:01 am

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Fox2! wrote:We've seen numerous fleets discussed at various points, some explicitly, some only by reference or implication. But I've not seen an enumeration of the various RMN fleets.

From information provided, and the mathematical "Law of the Included Middle", I have identified the following fleet organization:

Royal Manticoran Navy Numbered Fleets

1 Home Fleet (Manticore A, Manticore, Sphinx)
2 Gryphon (Manticore B, Gryphon)
3 Trevor’s Star (Originally part of offensive force to take from PRH)
4 Medusa?
5 Fleet Train Logistics
6 Trevor’s Star Offensive force? Disestablished? (this was the hammer to 3rd fleet's anvil in the coordinated hyperspace/wormhole attack on Trevor's Star to liberate it from the PRH).
7 Unknown
8 Main Offensive Force
9 Silesia Quadrant?
10 Talbot Quadrant

HoS states that the Gryphon Fleet District was disestablished. Does that mean that the associated numbered fleet was also disestablished, and its assets and responsibilities assumed by Home Fleet?

Does the Seventh Fleet exist as a force?


The number designation of a fleet may be completely arbitrary and nothing to do with the actual number of fleets in the RMN. It would also be changed on a random basis to throw of enemy intelligence operations.
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Re: Fleet Numbering and Assignments
Post by munroburton   » Thu Apr 20, 2017 5:36 am

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Seventh may contain the hospital establishments and ships. However, it does say in HoS that "Auxiliary hospital ships in RMN service are jointly managed between the Third and Seventh Space Lords."

So maybe it got folded over into Fifth Fleet at some point.
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Re: Fleet Numbering and Assignments
Post by Bill Woods   » Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:52 am

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Robert_A_Woodward wrote:For that matter, we don't know if 3rd fleet was reconstituted after tBNBiHH.

Okay, I give up. ...
Pretty sure that BNB does not mean Bed 'n' Breakfast.
'[Something] Battle [something] Honor Harrington'?
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Re: Fleet Numbering and Assignments
Post by robert132   » Thu Apr 20, 2017 12:02 pm

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pnakasone wrote:The number designation of a fleet may be completely arbitrary and nothing to do with the actual number of fleets in the RMN. It would also be changed on a random basis to throw of enemy intelligence operations.


Historically, the Japanese Navy was a bit slow to pick up on the idea that the US 3rd Fleet and 5th Fleet was actually the same fleet formation but under different commanders, ADM Halsey in command made it 3rd Fleet, under ADM Spruance it became 5th Fleet.

Any confusion only lasted until someone twigged onto the fact that the same ships were being spotted in both formations and the only change was that either Halsey or Spruance was leading while the other was at Pearl Harbor or on the West Coast planning his next operation in consultation with ADM Nimitz (PAC Fleet) and ADM King (CNO). The net effect was that for a while it would appear the US Pacific Fleet was about twice as big as it actually was.

The same thing might have been done by the RMN with ADM Harrington (8th Fleet) swapping with, oh maybe ADM *Insert name* (7th Fleet) or by Haven with ADM Tourville (2nd Fleet) swapping with perhaps ADM Chin (14th Fleet.)



Imagine the confusion that could have reigned in CNO's office on Haven, at least at first.
****

Just my opinion of course and probably not worth the paper it's not written on.
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Re: Fleet Numbering and Assignments
Post by pnakasone   » Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:05 pm

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robert132 wrote:Historically, the Japanese Navy was a bit slow to pick up on the idea that the US 3rd Fleet and 5th Fleet was actually the same fleet formation but under different commanders, ADM Halsey in command made it 3rd Fleet, under ADM Spruance it became 5th Fleet.

Any confusion only lasted until someone twigged onto the fact that the same ships were being spotted in both formations and the only change was that either Halsey or Spruance was leading while the other was at Pearl Harbor or on the West Coast planning his next operation in consultation with ADM Nimitz (PAC Fleet) and ADM King (CNO). The net effect was that for a while it would appear the US Pacific Fleet was about twice as big as it actually was.

The same thing might have been done by the RMN with ADM Harrington (8th Fleet) swapping with, oh maybe ADM *Insert name* (7th Fleet) or by Haven with ADM Tourville (2nd Fleet) swapping with perhaps ADM Chin (14th Fleet.)



Imagine the confusion that could have reigned in CNO's office on Haven, at least at first.


That is just with simple bureaucratic designation change to signify which commander is in charge of a fleet. You have to also add both sides are going to be doing very best to add too the Intel confusion. Both sides also know that the other side is doing that. It dos not help that intel is weeks to months old by the time the CNOs get it in their hands.
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Re: Fleet Numbering and Assignments
Post by Fox2!   » Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:52 pm

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robert132 wrote:
pnakasone wrote:The number designation of a fleet may be completely arbitrary and nothing to do with the actual number of fleets in the RMN. It would also be changed on a random basis to throw of enemy intelligence operations.


Historically, the Japanese Navy was a bit slow to pick up on the idea that the US 3rd Fleet and 5th Fleet was actually the same fleet formation but under different commanders, ADM Halsey in command made it 3rd Fleet, under ADM Spruance it became 5th Fleet.

Any confusion only lasted until someone twigged onto the fact that the same ships were being spotted in both formations and the only change was that either Halsey or Spruance was leading while the other was at Pearl Harbor or on the West Coast planning his next operation in consultation with ADM Nimitz (PAC Fleet) and ADM King (CNO). The net effect was that for a while it would appear the US Pacific Fleet was about twice as big as it actually was.

The same thing might have been done by the RMN with ADM Harrington (8th Fleet) swapping with, oh maybe ADM *Insert name* (7th Fleet) or by Haven with ADM Tourville (2nd Fleet) swapping with perhaps ADM Chin (14th Fleet.)



Imagine the confusion that could have reigned in CNO's office on Haven, at least at first.


I believe in HoS (maybe the Jayne's excerpt) it states that the PRN assigned hull numbers out of a common pool, regarless of type, and randomly changed them. All to ensure "confusion to their enemies."
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Re: Fleet Numbering and Assignments
Post by Robert_A_Woodward   » Fri Apr 21, 2017 3:25 am

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Bill Woods wrote:
Robert_A_Woodward wrote:For that matter, we don't know if 3rd fleet was reconstituted after tBNBiHH.

Okay, I give up. ...
Pretty sure that BNB does not mean Bed 'n' Breakfast.
'[Something] Battle [something] Honor Harrington'?


It is one of the expressions that I have coined*. It stands for "the Biggest Naval Battle in Human History"; taken from the last sentence of chapter 62 in _At All Costs_. Of course, I think it has been surpassed by destruction of SLN Eleventh Fleet in _A Rising Thunder_.

*For example, I have generally referred to Albrecht Detweiler as "the Mesan All-Highest".
----------------------------
Beowulf was bad.
(first sentence of Chapter VI of _Space Viking_ by H. Beam Piper)
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Re: Fleet Numbering and Assignments
Post by robert132   » Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:31 pm

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Fox2! wrote:I believe in HoS (maybe the Jayne's excerpt) it states that the PRN assigned hull numbers out of a common pool, regarless of type, and randomly changed them. All to ensure "confusion to their enemies."


A real world corollary of that would be the propensity of the Soviet Navy to do something similar, changing hull numbers / pennant numbers when a ship changed fleet assignments (Red Banner Northern Fleet to Red Banner Pacific Fleet) or for no reason at all.
****

Just my opinion of course and probably not worth the paper it's not written on.
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