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Re-Reading the Series With the Ending in Mind

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Re-Reading the Series With the Ending in Mind
Post by CRC   » Fri Mar 17, 2017 9:59 am

CRC
Lieutenant Commander

Posts: 126
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2015 8:45 am

Business trips are great in one sense. I get to read on the plane and with a Kindle, I get to re-read complete series.

So I've been re-reading Safehold from beginning to end. I'm now in the end pages of How Firm A Foundation.

But the real interesting read has been a couple of things, in light of the ending:

1 - The significance of the piece of paper Wylsynn gave to Duchairn. Looking back, it seems to have galvanized Duchairn and set him on the path he took - although we didn't know it at the time.

2 - The decline of Zahmsyn Trynair over the course of the books in both ability and influence. He started out clearly in charge, but Clyntahn basically scared the hell out of him after the purge, but he just sort of faded away.

3 - The rise of Allayn Maigwair from feckless to pretty substantial after the ground forces became involved.

And then after Safehold, I think I'll start with On Basilisk Station and go from there!
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Re: Re-Reading the Series With the Ending in Mind
Post by DrakBibliophile   » Fri Mar 17, 2017 3:43 pm

DrakBibliophile
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Location: East Central Illinois

Going to be vague to avoid spoilers but I was pleased to see my suspicions about one gentleman were accurate. :)

CRC wrote:Business trips are great in one sense. I get to read on the plane and with a Kindle, I get to re-read complete series.

So I've been re-reading Safehold from beginning to end. I'm now in the end pages of How Firm A Foundation.

But the real interesting read has been a couple of things, in light of the ending:

1 - The significance of the piece of paper Wylsynn gave to Duchairn. Looking back, it seems to have galvanized Duchairn and set him on the path he took - although we didn't know it at the time.

2 - The decline of Zahmsyn Trynair over the course of the books in both ability and influence. He started out clearly in charge, but Clyntahn basically scared the hell out of him after the purge, but he just sort of faded away.

3 - The rise of Allayn Maigwair from feckless to pretty substantial after the ground forces became involved.

And then after Safehold, I think I'll start with On Basilisk Station and go from there!
*
Paul Howard (Alias Drak Bibliophile)
*
Sometimes The Dragon Wins! [Polite Dragon Smile]
*
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Re: Re-Reading the Series With the Ending in Mind
Post by WeberFan   » Thu Mar 23, 2017 1:10 pm

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Posts: 241
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Multiple SNIPS

CRC wrote:The significance of the piece of paper Wylsynn gave to Duchairn. Looking back, it seems to have galvanized Duchairn and set him on the path he took - although we didn't know it at the time.

I don't know if it was what gave Duchairn, but it certainly gave him a WAY to actually do something. And, in a sense (I guess) it gave him his only real hope of personal survival!

CRC wrote:The decline of Zahmsyn Trynair over the course of the books in both ability and influence. He started out clearly in charge, but Clyntahn basically scared the hell out of him after the purge, but he just sort of faded away.

To my reckoning, Trynair's collapse was rather precipitous - it seemed like one day he was this strong leader of the Church's "foreign policy" and the next day he fell off a cliff into a big bowl of milquetoast...

CRC wrote:The rise of Allayn Maigwair from feckless to pretty substantial after the ground forces became involved.

I agree... By his own admission, he never really considered himself to be the "sharpest piece of chalk in the box," but (amongst others) Duchairn ultimately concluded that he had a very well developed sense of pragmatism and common sense. Seemed to me that there were a lot of little triggers that forced his nature to the forefront. I definitely don't think it was the kind of self-preservation as Duchairn (until his rebirth) though. I think he finally just got tired of Clyntahn's bloviating.

I like your analysis, though CRC. And yes, I also spend a lot of my time reading, reading, jumping back and forth to check specific points, etc. And, like you, I see significant character changes all around - not at all just in the Temple!
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Re: Re-Reading the Series With the Ending in Mind
Post by DrakBibliophile   » Thu Mar 23, 2017 5:18 pm

DrakBibliophile
Admiral

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Trynair's collapse was IMO fore-told by all the meetings of the "Gang of Four" where he didn't attend.

Duchairn, Clyntahn, and Maigwair had all those meetings where they argued about the course of the war and made delusions without Trynair's input.

Trynair no longer had a necessary role in the war and apparently was too afraid of Clyntahn to try to assert a role.


WeberFan wrote:Multiple SNIPS

CRC wrote:The significance of the piece of paper Wylsynn gave to Duchairn. Looking back, it seems to have galvanized Duchairn and set him on the path he took - although we didn't know it at the time.

I don't know if it was what gave Duchairn, but it certainly gave him a WAY to actually do something. And, in a sense (I guess) it gave him his only real hope of personal survival!

CRC wrote:The decline of Zahmsyn Trynair over the course of the books in both ability and influence. He started out clearly in charge, but Clyntahn basically scared the hell out of him after the purge, but he just sort of faded away.

To my reckoning, Trynair's collapse was rather precipitous - it seemed like one day he was this strong leader of the Church's "foreign policy" and the next day he fell off a cliff into a big bowl of milquetoast...

CRC wrote:The rise of Allayn Maigwair from feckless to pretty substantial after the ground forces became involved.

I agree... By his own admission, he never really considered himself to be the "sharpest piece of chalk in the box," but (amongst others) Duchairn ultimately concluded that he had a very well developed sense of pragmatism and common sense. Seemed to me that there were a lot of little triggers that forced his nature to the forefront. I definitely don't think it was the kind of self-preservation as Duchairn (until his rebirth) though. I think he finally just got tired of Clyntahn's bloviating.

I like your analysis, though CRC. And yes, I also spend a lot of my time reading, reading, jumping back and forth to check specific points, etc. And, like you, I see significant character changes all around - not at all just in the Temple!
*
Paul Howard (Alias Drak Bibliophile)
*
Sometimes The Dragon Wins! [Polite Dragon Smile]
*
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Re: Re-Reading the Series With the Ending in Mind
Post by zyffyr   » Thu Mar 23, 2017 7:33 pm

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DrakBibliophile wrote:Duchairn, Clyntahn, and Maigwair had all those meetings where they argued about the course of the war and made delusions without Trynair's input.


Delusions? That is a truly perfect autocorrect error.
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Re: Re-Reading the Series With the Ending in Mind
Post by WeberFan   » Fri Mar 24, 2017 3:08 am

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zyffyr wrote:
DrakBibliophile wrote:Duchairn, Clyntahn, and Maigwair had all those meetings where they argued about the course of the war and made delusions without Trynair's input.


Delusions? That is a truly perfect autocorrect error.

Oh, I dunno, zyffyr... While the grammatical usage may be incorrect, and while one could readily substitute "decisions" in place of "delusions," I submit that Trynair was clearly delusional... For so long he was the "right hand" of the Grand Vicar. We have textev over and over again that the Grand Vicar was incapable of making any decisions more complex than choosing which socks he would wear on any given day (metaphorically speaking). The Grand Vicar was "fed" his talking points and speeches by Trynair on a regular basis.

So IMHO Trynair viewed himself as the real holder of the levers of power in the Temple. Must have come as a shock to him to realize that Clyntahn - as the keeper of the Inquisition and the "physical power" was the real power holder. So Trynair's delusion was in continuing to believe - in the face of what evolved into overwhelming evidence - that he was actually not the most powerful of the Go4 but rather the least powerful.

Duchairn had the power of the purse.
Magwair had the power of the army.
Clyntahn had the power of the Inquisition.

Trynair? He had only the soft power of influence - which could (and was) overwhelmed early and often by the Inquisition's interactions with the Church's intendants in each secular realm.
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Re: Re-Reading the Series With the Ending in Mind
Post by DrakBibliophile   » Fri Mar 24, 2017 2:12 pm

DrakBibliophile
Admiral

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Location: East Central Illinois

Nod.

Some had wondered if Trynair could have used his "influence" over the Grand Vicar to "fight" Clyntahn.

But I always believed that the Grand Vicar would have folded before the threat of Clyntahn's anger.

The Grand Vicar might not have been very smart but likely was smart enough to know that Clyntahn wouldn't bow to him.

Oh, "delusions" was a typo on my part. ;)

WeberFan wrote:
zyffyr wrote:
Delusions? That is a truly perfect autocorrect error.

Oh, I dunno, zyffyr... While the grammatical usage may be incorrect, and while one could readily substitute "decisions" in place of "delusions," I submit that Trynair was clearly delusional... For so long he was the "right hand" of the Grand Vicar. We have textev over and over again that the Grand Vicar was incapable of making any decisions more complex than choosing which socks he would wear on any given day (metaphorically speaking). The Grand Vicar was "fed" his talking points and speeches by Trynair on a regular basis.

So IMHO Trynair viewed himself as the real holder of the levers of power in the Temple. Must have come as a shock to him to realize that Clyntahn - as the keeper of the Inquisition and the "physical power" was the real power holder. So Trynair's delusion was in continuing to believe - in the face of what evolved into overwhelming evidence - that he was actually not the most powerful of the Go4 but rather the least powerful.

Duchairn had the power of the purse.
Magwair had the power of the army.
Clyntahn had the power of the Inquisition.

Trynair? He had only the soft power of influence - which could (and was) overwhelmed early and often by the Inquisition's interactions with the Church's intendants in each secular realm.
*
Paul Howard (Alias Drak Bibliophile)
*
Sometimes The Dragon Wins! [Polite Dragon Smile]
*
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Re: Re-Reading the Series With the Ending in Mind
Post by ChaChaCharms   » Fri Mar 24, 2017 4:19 pm

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I feel like one of the biggest character changes is in Cayleb. We start the series with him chasing after a slash lizard of all things. He in turn shows a young, calculating, and sometime brash attitude when it comes to negotiations and formalities (his terms with Thirsk in OAR :twisted: ).

However, he had to take on the duties of the kingdom after the unfortunate events off Darcos Sound and determine the best course of action with regard to the COGA and its puppets. He took bold and hazardous risks that could even make Merlin gasp at times, but then came more life changing events **SPOILER, I guess**, he became a husband, an emperor, and a father. The last two basically made sure that he would not be putting himself in harms way and was resigned to send and rely on people in his place.

It would have been easy and in some minds, justifiable, to slaughter every COGA combatant; to give as they got, but he was raised on a different set of values and beliefs, and he listened to, and agreed with, his counsel.

All in all, I see a young man trying to prove himself thrust into the political and military realm a few years too soon, in an unfathomable predicament (total annihilation may need a stronger word than predicament), and also carrying the weight that the truths that 99.9% of the world believes was a total lie.
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Re: Re-Reading the Series With the Ending in Mind
Post by WeberFan   » Sat Mar 25, 2017 4:27 am

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DrakBibliophile wrote:Nod.

Some had wondered if Trynair could have used his "influence" over the Grand Vicar to "fight" Clyntahn.

But I always believed that the Grand Vicar would have folded before the threat of Clyntahn's anger.

The Grand Vicar might not have been very smart but likely was smart enough to know that Clyntahn wouldn't bow to him.

Oh, "delusions" was a typo on my part. ;)

Yeah, Drak.

But I'm a business traveler stuck in the Middle East for another week and I have to get my humor whenever and wherever I can! Delusions... Decisions... meh...
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Re: Re-Reading the Series With the Ending in Mind
Post by CRC   » Sat Mar 25, 2017 11:22 am

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Posts: 126
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2015 8:45 am

Delusions...decisions...I actually read it as a deliberate play on words...and liked it!
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