Guns, Guns Guns

What was the legal agreement?

HB of CJ wrote:Time for a little bit more. Also it is apparent that most folks do not understand that our situation here in SW OR USA in Josephine County is the result of totally illegal activity by our own Federal Government.

Most of us who vote here are very conservative. We do not like being illegally treated by any government. The Feds have run over us with a logging truck. We had a LEGAL agreement with the Feds. THEY BROKE IT!

Some would feel OK with this. Most of us down here do not. We voted against the Country tax levy, (including sheriff) because frankly rolling over and KOW TOWING to broken contracts rubbed us the wrong way.

Can I say this? We got fucked by many. Now we wanted to say getting fucked was OK? Hardly. We voted NO. Then the County Commissioners, (the three elected folks) did their best to punish us for our audacity.

Again, long story. Local politics. So now we have no law enforcement. So what? We are capable of protecting ourselves. The Sheriff would never admit this. So most of us carry firearms on our person.

What does this mean? Practically speaking, hardly anything. Everything has continued as before. Some problems just seem to get taken care of? Strange how that may happen. Most of us feel OK with this.

Now you know a little bit more. We enjoy little government. We enjoy low taxes even more. Remember, law enforcement has no legal duty to protect YOU. Only the public. Something to remember. Thus the use of guns.

Daryl wrote:Somewhat of a circular argument to have to have guns for personal defence, because so many people have guns.

Not necessarily.

When a violent criminal breaks into your house to rob and murder you, do you want to wrestle or shoot?
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If you call 9-1-1 and tell them that somebody with a gun is breaking into your house, they will send two cops in 10 or 15 minutes. If you tell them that somebody is breaking into your house and YOU have a gun, they will send 10 or 15 cops in two minutes.

Strange comment that "law enforcement has no legal duty to protect you, only the public".

Here protection of the individual is the prime duty of police. The overall public's protection has many aspects, nationally it's defence forces, legally the courts, politically our parliaments, the free press gets a look in as well.
Police do have a role in protecting the general public, as in preventing riots and affrays but it is still based on the individual's safety. I do like Ireland where they are called the Garda Síochána na hÉireann (Guardians of the Peace of Ireland , the role definition is protection rather than policing (regulating).

Actually I don't want to wrestle or shoot, but in the very unlikely case of a violent criminal breaking in (very safe property, in a safe neighbourhood, in a safe country) I would call emergency, and then tell the scum to take any of the fully insured goods they want. If they still want to physically threaten us I am a sword maker and all the display ones are razor sharp. This should be sufficient as our gun laws make it quite unlikely that they will be carrying a gun.

Imaginos1892 wrote:

Daryl wrote:Somewhat of a circular argument to have to have guns for personal defence, because so many people have guns.

Not necessarily.

When a violent criminal breaks into your house to rob and murder you, do you want to wrestle or shoot?
--------------------------
If you call 9-1-1 and tell them that somebody with a gun is breaking into your house, they will send two cops in 10 or 15 minutes. If you tell them that somebody is breaking into your house and YOU have a gun, they will send 10 or 15 cops in two minutes.

Time for better answers and thank you for your patience. Not enough hours in the day it seems. Yikes!

Interesting not indeed. The USA Courts have long and frequently ruled that public safety agencies like fire, ems and police only have the legal duty to protect the overall population. Not the individual. Not the single person. Old case law here in the USA. I can not comment about your Nation's laws.

This is why here in the USA individuals can not WIN criminal or civil suits against entire safety agencies. No legal mandate. Nearly always the Judge tosses out the suit. Our police, ems and fire personal have no legal requirement to protect individuals. Therefore we have the requirement to protect ourselves.

The whole thing with the US government breaking faith and legal contract with us here in SW OR USA actually began with the 10th Amendment. Very simple language. Very simple words. It means what it says. It is still in effect as far as I know. Illegal Federal Regulatory Agencies. A bunch of them. All illegal.

In our particular case the BLM and the FS. Bureau of Land Management. Forest Service. Illegal seizure of Oregon State Land and private property. They are constantly creating regulatory agency rules and regulations having the force of Federal Law. All very illegal. Nobody voted on this. Very bad. Very wrong.

How can an illegal agency conduct legal contracts? Dunno. They promised us Federal money for SW OR USA to stop cutting trees. We stopped. Then the Feds violated the contract. They stopped paying us for us for not cutting our trees. Locations inside Oregon. 10th Amendment. Illegal acts compounded by illegality.

But ... we still can not cut own own trees. Sometimes private property trees. Land use restrictions.

Then we are back stabbed by our own County leaders. They rolled over and played dead to the Feds. Then the same elected idiots want us to raise our own taxes because the Feds ripped us in the rear and we are supposed to say; "Oh that feels good and can we get ripped some more please?" Now you understand more about this?

Sosssss .... short version of a long story. We have no tax base for local government. That means no local law enforcement here in Cave Junction. One part time deputy 20 hours a week does not count. Thus we take care of the problem ourselves. Natural law. Dodge City. Tombstone. Look it up if you don't understand.

(helpful hints) American West around 1868 to 1882. Historical frontier towns. Cattle drives. Western gangs. Regional situations. Natural law. Historical use of self protection. This is why we do not want more taxes. We are happy with less government. We can take care of ourselves. No nanny state.

Finally. Now you may understand more why we carry personal firearms upon our own person. We need them. We have a right of self protection. The necessity of protecting our loved ones in our own homes. The protection of our own property. Never bring harsh words to a knife fight. Never bring a knife to a gunfight. Hopefully we will never need this stuff. Do no harm.

As far as I've been able to find the federal government did not make any promise to replace timber sales money. It chose to as Congress made it part of the federal budget for many years but Congress lawfully decided not to continue to include it in the budget. That is not a violation of the legal agreement.

I don't see how the constitutionality of federal agencies comes in to it since it is Congress that creates the federal budget and allocates federal funds to various programs (and I don't want to get into that since, no matter who participates in the discussion, I doubt any minds will be changed and it will just devolve into people shouting past each other).

BTW: I think it Congress should basically reinstate the Secure Rural Schools and Community Self-Determination Act since the states and counties cannot use or profit from federally controlled land but they are still responsible for maintaining the citizen infrastructure of the entire state/county.

HB of CJ wrote:Time for better answers and thank you for your patience. Not enough hours in the day it seems. Yikes!

Interesting not indeed. The USA Courts have long and frequently ruled that public safety agencies like fire, ems and police only have the legal duty to protect the overall population. Not the individual. Not the single person. Old case law here in the USA. I can not comment about your Nation's laws.

This is why here in the USA individuals can not WIN criminal or civil suits against entire safety agencies. No legal mandate. Nearly always the Judge tosses out the suit. Our police, ems and fire personal have no legal requirement to protect individuals. Therefore we have the requirement to protect ourselves.

The whole thing with the US government breaking faith and legal contract with us here in SW OR USA actually began with the 10th Amendment. Very simple language. Very simple words. It means what it says. It is still in effect as far as I know. Illegal Federal Regulatory Agencies. A bunch of them. All illegal.

In our particular case the BLM and the FS. Bureau of Land Management. Forest Service. Illegal seizure of Oregon State Land and private property. They are constantly creating regulatory agency rules and regulations having the force of Federal Law. All very illegal. Nobody voted on this. Very bad. Very wrong.

How can an illegal agency conduct legal contracts? Dunno. They promised us Federal money for SW OR USA to stop cutting trees. We stopped. Then the Feds violated the contract. They stopped paying us for us for not cutting our trees. Locations inside Oregon. 10th Amendment. Illegal acts compounded by illegality.

But ... we still can not cut own own trees. Sometimes private property trees. Land use restrictions.

Then we are back stabbed by our own County leaders. They rolled over and played dead to the Feds. Then the same elected idiots want us to raise our own taxes because the Feds ripped us in the rear and we are supposed to say; "Oh that feels good and can we get ripped some more please?" Now you understand more about this?

Sosssss .... short version of a long story. We have no tax base for local government. That means no local law enforcement here in Cave Junction. One part time deputy 20 hours a week does not count. Thus we take care of the problem ourselves. Natural law. Dodge City. Tombstone. Look it up if you don't understand.

(helpful hints) American West around 1868 to 1882. Historical frontier towns. Cattle drives. Western gangs. Regional situations. Natural law. Historical use of self protection. This is why we do not want more taxes. We are happy with less government. We can take care of ourselves. No nanny state.

Finally. Now you may understand more why we carry personal firearms upon our own person. We need them. We have a right of self protection. The necessity of protecting our loved ones in our own homes. The protection of our own property. Never bring harsh words to a knife fight. Never bring a knife to a gunfight. Hopefully we will never need this stuff. Do no harm.

Or, as so many are fond of saying, "When seconds count, the police are only minutes away."

HB of CJ wrote:Time for better answers and thank you for your patience. Not enough hours in the day it seems. Yikes!

Interesting not indeed. The USA Courts have long and frequently ruled that public safety agencies like fire, ems and police only have the legal duty to protect the overall population. Not the individual. Not the single person. Old case law here in the USA. I can not comment about your Nation's laws.

This is why here in the USA individuals can not WIN criminal or civil suits against entire safety agencies. No legal mandate. Nearly always the Judge tosses out the suit. Our police, ems and fire personal have no legal requirement to protect individuals. Therefore we have the requirement to protect ourselves.

The whole thing with the US government breaking faith and legal contract with us here in SW OR USA actually began with the 10th Amendment. Very simple language. Very simple words. It means what it says. It is still in effect as far as I know. Illegal Federal Regulatory Agencies. A bunch of them. All illegal.

In our particular case the BLM and the FS. Bureau of Land Management. Forest Service. Illegal seizure of Oregon State Land and private property. They are constantly creating regulatory agency rules and regulations having the force of Federal Law. All very illegal. Nobody voted on this. Very bad. Very wrong.

How can an illegal agency conduct legal contracts? Dunno. They promised us Federal money for SW OR USA to stop cutting trees. We stopped. Then the Feds violated the contract. They stopped paying us for us for not cutting our trees. Locations inside Oregon. 10th Amendment. Illegal acts compounded by illegality.

But ... we still can not cut own own trees. Sometimes private property trees. Land use restrictions.

Then we are back stabbed by our own County leaders. They rolled over and played dead to the Feds. Then the same elected idiots want us to raise our own taxes because the Feds ripped us in the rear and we are supposed to say; "Oh that feels good and can we get ripped some more please?" Now you understand more about this?

Sosssss .... short version of a long story. We have no tax base for local government. That means no local law enforcement here in Cave Junction. One part time deputy 20 hours a week does not count. Thus we take care of the problem ourselves. Natural law. Dodge City. Tombstone. Look it up if you don't understand.

(helpful hints) American West around 1868 to 1882. Historical frontier towns. Cattle drives. Western gangs. Regional situations. Natural law. Historical use of self protection. This is why we do not want more taxes. We are happy with less government. We can take care of ourselves. No nanny state.

Finally. Now you may understand more why we carry personal firearms upon our own person. We need them. We have a right of self protection. The necessity of protecting our loved ones in our own homes. The protection of our own property. Never bring harsh words to a knife fight. Never bring a knife to a gunfight. Hopefully we will never need this stuff. Do no harm.

Michael Everett wrote:Actually, in that situation, weapons would be almost required.

At the time the situation actually is that of a "rough frontier", sure.
Nowadays, that´s just a silly excuse.
It´s not exactly like Svalbard, where you have to have a weapon because polar bears are so common and volatile that you really, REALLY need the protection on hand.

Michael Everett wrote:Look at Terry Pratchett's Assassin School. Everyone went around armed and the result was that everyone was polite, since they all knew hundreds of ways to kill people and didn't want to provoke someone into using a way they hadn't studied to inhume them.

You DO realise that is parody i hope.
And even there, all it takes is one mr Teatime, and the place might end up filled with a lot of ghosts instead.

Michael Everett wrote:Think of it as the ultimate in Darwin's Evolution Theory. Anyone insane enough to believe they can take on dozens of armed people at once simply will not be around to reproduce, therefore their arrogance won't get passed onto the next generation.

Ah, but you see that assumes that it is the IDIOT that gets killed. Reality snickers at that assumption.

Michael Everett wrote:After several dozen generations (and kids being raised on Grandpa's "when I was young, Mad Ol Frankie finally snapped 'cause all da girls didna like da way he neva bathed an started shootin', so we had ta put a bullet tween 'is eyes" stories), the local culture would have either settled on extreme politeness or be wiped out.

*LOL*

Wish it was that simple.

HB of CJ wrote:Time for a little bit more. Also it is apparent that most folks do not understand that our situation here in SW OR USA in Josephine County is the result of totally illegal activity by our own Federal Government.

Most of us who vote here are very conservative. We do not like being illegally treated by any government. The Feds have run over us with a logging truck. We had a LEGAL agreement with the Feds. THEY BROKE IT!

Some would feel OK with this. Most of us down here do not. We voted against the Country tax levy, (including sheriff) because frankly rolling over and KOW TOWING to broken contracts rubbed us the wrong way.

Can I say this? We got screwed by many. Now we wanted to say getting screwed was OK? Hardly. We voted NO. Then the County Commissioners, (the three elected folks) did their best to punish us for our audacity.

Again, long story. Local politics. So now we have no law enforcement. So what? We are capable of protecting ourselves. The Sheriff would never admit this. So most of us carry firearms on our person.

What does this mean? Practically speaking, hardly anything. Everything has continued as before. Some problems just seem to get taken care of? Strange how that may happen. Most of us feel OK with this.

Now you know a little bit more. We enjoy little government. We enjoy low taxes even more. Remember, law enforcement has no legal duty to protect YOU. Only the public. Something to remember. Thus the use of guns.

Keep on whining. Maybe someone wont connect your inability to make SOMETHING work with your own words about "cry babies".

The situation is utterly stupid and sad, but the way you whine about it is just hilariously funny.

Seriously, you want the government only when it bails you out, yes what a rugged and independent roughneck you are.
And you rather close down local law enforcement than pay for it?

It doesn´t matter if you were wronged by the govt or the tooth faerie, you still manage an epic fail by not doing anything better than voting HEELLL NOOO to spite that uber evil govt thingy.

What are you, 5 year old having a fight in a sandbox?

Imaginos1892 wrote:Not necessarily.

When a violent criminal breaks into your house to rob and murder you, do you want to wrestle or shoot?

Why would i want to do that?

I have an air rifle if i really need to hit someone further away than i can hit with shuriken, which is about 15-20m.

And for close up, i have a guandao, only an idiot would try to attack me if i´m using it.

Imaginos1892 wrote:If you call 9-1-1 and tell them that somebody with a gun is breaking into your house, they will send two cops in 10 or 15 minutes. If you tell them that somebody is breaking into your house and YOU have a gun, they will send 10 or 15 cops in two minutes.

Eh no. First of all, burglars here almost NEVER have guns. Hells Angels and Bandidos and people intent on things like robbing banks, there you can find guns.

Burglars? They´re not stupid enough to run around with guns, because it´s effectively a telltale guaranteed to get them picked up by police as they are almost certainly not going to have a license for those guns, meaning the moment police can find them, they know they´ve got the goons.

I can´t even remember the last time i heard of any burglars with guns here. Because burglars specifically try to come when you´re NOT home.