RTH Official Snippet #3

Howard,

Regards this --

Howard T. Map-addict wrote:M-t B,
the way I read those snippets,
chan Geraith had decided *not* to attack up the Karys
Chain, but instead to go the long way around through
the Kelsayr Chain and trap the Arcanans in Karys.

Chan Skrithik would be less familiar with that route.

I note that talk of things other than logistics.
E. g. there is much talk of dragons, and why they
have been so passive since the battle.

HTM

You missed the point that the Kelsayr Chain loops with the Karys
Chain.

The moment the PAAF discovered that, the last two universes in the Kelsayr Chain were closer to Ft. Salby than the origin universe of that chain.

That makes Regiment-Captain Chan Skrithik the key commander in the logistical support chain for those two universes...which is where the 3rd Dragoons are going.

The difficulty l'm having with your assertion here is, do you really believe that the Ft. Salby people have been left out of this discussion?

The briefer walks into the meeting with what is described as a thick file folder, I am sure the results of his having attended briefings, conferences and staff meetings ad naseum including meetings where the command staff at Ft. Salby would have been both present and represented.

This is only one meeting, a meeting between chan Gerith and his staff. There have been other meetings and briefings where the Ft Salby people were present and some like this one where they weren't. There is textev for this in HHNF. The purpose of this meeting is for chan Gerith to lay the vision for the upcoming campaign before his staff so they can begin enfleshing the details for the plan. There will be meetings that follow including meetings which will be joint meetings with the Ft Salby people to deal with unanswered questions on the points you raised. Given the way the military works, these details will be rehashed and examined until everyone involved in the planning can see them in their dreams.

Don

reply at bottom, in accord with Mil-tech bard. HTM

Mil-tech bard wrote:Howard,

Regards this --

Howard T. Map-addict wrote:M-t B,
the way I read those snippets,
chan Geraith had decided *not* to attack up the Karys
Chain, but instead to go the long way around through
the Kelsayr Chain and trap the Arcanans in Karys.

Chan Skrithik would be less familiar with that route.

I note that talk of things other than logistics.
E. g. there is much talk of dragons, and why they
have been so passive since the battle.

HTM

1 You missed the point that
the Kelsayr Chain loops with the Karys Chain.

2 The moment the PAAF discovered that, the last two universes in the Kelsayr Chain were closer to Ft. Salby than the origin universe of that chain.

3 That makes Regiment-Captain Chan Skrithik the key commander in the logistical support chain for those two universes...which is where the 3rd Dragoons are going.

M-t b, I numbered your points for easy reference.

1 No, I used that point.
That is what "the long way around" means.
I believe that I was the first Multiverse Fan
here to use the word "loop" to describe chains
that branch and then rejoin.
"Nairsom Loop" I called this one.

2 Traisum is the "origin universe" of both sides
of this loop-chain. You are right that the route
from Ft. Tharkoma, Salym, via Salbyton and Karys,
to Nairsom and Resyn, is shorter than the route west
of the Finger Sea, across the Mbisi Sea, Vandor Ocean,
and then through Kelsayr.
But chan Geraith will be using the longer route!

3 Fort Salby, and chan Skrithik, will be bypassed.
The Big Idea is to continue to face Harshu and his
Arcanans at the Traisum Cut, sending no one but
scouts beyond it, until Second Brigade (reinforced)
comes up from behind them.
Skrithik's special knowledge won't be used.

Even so, he could reasonably have been at that meeting.
I never meant to say otherwise.
All I say, is that he wasn't absolutely needed there.

If Harshu runs, or even surrenders,
then chan Skrithik's special knowledge will be needed.

HTM

Howard, in reply this --

Howard T. Map-addict wrote:reply at bottom, in accord with Mil-tech bard. HTM

M-t b, I numbered your points for easy reference.

1 No, I used that point.
That is what "the long way around" means.
I believe that I was the first Multiverse Fan
here to use the word "loop" to describe chains
that branch and then rejoin.
"Nairsom Loop" I called this one.

2 Traisum is the "origin universe" of both sides
of this loop-chain. You are right that the route
from Ft. Tharkoma, Salym, via Salbyton and Karys,
to Nairsom and Resyn, is shorter than the route west
of the Finger Sea, across the Mbisi Sea, Vandor Ocean,
and then through Kelsayr.
But chan Geraith will be using the longer route!

3 Fort Salby, and chan Skrithik, will be bypassed.
The Big Idea is to continue to face Harshu and his
Arcanans at the Traisum Cut, sending no one but
scouts beyond it, until Second Brigade (reinforced)
comes up from behind them.
Skrithik's special knowledge won't be used.

Even so, he could reasonably have been at that meeting.
I never meant to say otherwise.
All I say, is that he wasn't absolutely needed there.

If Harshu runs, or even surrenders,
then chan Skrithik's special knowledge will be needed.

HTM

Howard.

Revisiting the basic gate geography:

Karys chain -- 4056 straight line to Hell's Gate

Kelsayr chain -- 8266 straight line miles to Hell's Gate

Karys chain looping distance in into Kelsayr chain universes

Ft Salby to Nairsom via Thermyn -- 4390 miles to Nairsom/Resym gate gate vs. 6210 via Kelsayr

Ft Salby to Resym via Thermyn -- 7140 miles to Resym/Lashai gate vs. 3460 miles via Kelsayr.

So, given above in terms of support distance, the following gates were all in closer support distance from Ft. Salby than the Traisum/Kelsayr gate fort.

Nairsom/Resym gate
Thermyn/Nairsom gate
New Uromath/Thermyn gate
Hell's Gate/New Uromath gate

The 3rd Dragoon's route -- gate wise -- to Hell's Gate goes as follows via the Kelsayr chain

Traisum(3rd Gate)/Kelsayr
Kelsayr/Lashai
Lashai/Resym
Resym/Nairsom
Nairsom/Thermyn
Thermyn/New Uromath
New Uromath/Hell's Gate

Given the above, QED, not having Regiment-Captain Chan Skrithik or his executive officer for logistical reasons in that scene is a "too many battle dragons" class problem.

When it comes to preparing the logistics of this move I agree he needs to be involved but what makes you think this meeting is about logistics?

As I read it Chan Geraith arrived, with his staff and 3000 troops, somewhere between two days and a week ago to take command of all Sharonan forces at the front. They immediately spread out trying to get the new forces deployed and learn everything they needed to know to command effectively. Once that process was well underway and Chan Geraith had some idea of what he wanted to do, he called his staff together for a meeting where the key things that had been learned (or confirmed) about the situation could be shared with everyone and he could lay out his battle plan, in its bare outline, which is all he has right now, for their input. Since it wasn't immediately poked full of holes they will go out from this meeting and start fleshing it out and making sure it is really workable. The local experts will certainly need to be involved in filling in the details but I don't see why them not being present at this meeting is such a problem since Chan Geraith is doing little more then saying things the locals already know and brainstorming.

Nicholas

Mil-tech bard wrote:...snipped for space...

The 3rd Dragoon's route -- gate wise -- to Hell's Gate goes as follows via the Kelsayr chain

Traisum(3rd Gate)/Kelsayr
Kelsayr/Lashai
Lashai/Resym
Resym/Nairsom
Nairsom/Thermyn
Thermyn/New Uromath
New Uromath/Hell's Gate

Given the above, QED, not having Regiment-Captain Chan Skrithik or his executive officer for logistical reasons in that scene is a "too many battle dragons" class problem.

It is clear from this --

brnicholas wrote:When it comes to preparing the logistics of this move I agree he needs to be involved but what makes you think this meeting is about logistics?

As I read it Chan Geraith arrived, with his staff and 3000 troops, somewhere between two days and a week ago to take command of all Sharonan forces at the front. They immediately spread out trying to get the new forces deployed and learn everything they needed to know to command effectively. Once that process was well underway and Chan Geraith had some idea of what he wanted to do, he called his staff together for a meeting where the key things that had been learned (or confirmed) about the situation could be shared with everyone and he could lay out his battle plan, in its bare outline, which is all he has right now, for their input. Since it wasn't immediately poked full of holes they will go out from this meeting and start fleshing it out and making sure it is really workable. The local experts will certainly need to be involved in filling in the details but I don't see why them not being present at this meeting is such a problem since Chan Geraith is doing little more then saying things the locals already know and brainstorming.

Nicholas

...that you are unaware of the mindset of a professional military officer.

The 3rd Dragoon's are roughly in the position of the US Army 1st Cavalry Division about to conduct an amphibious operation and deliberately keeping USMC officers out of the room.

USMC officers who had just fought the enemy, knew the ground where the 1st Cavalry is going and have a 70(+) year history in opposed, combined arms, joint service, amphibious landings to give logistical and operational tips to the "amphibious virgin" 1st Cavalry Division.

The Portal Authority Armed Forces (PAAF) specialize in projecting military power over thousands of miles, and at the end of that projection they build a fort and map the surrounding area for water and other terrain features a the fort and on the path to it, to speed the economic development of that area.

The 3rd Dragoon's are going over several thousands of miles of howling wilderness that PAAF forces have pioneered and know where ALL THE WATER SOURCES FOR HORSES AND OTHER DRAFT ANIMALS ARE.

A file is not the man and a map is not the terrain.

Any 3rd Dragoon's force, which ever portal chain they are going up, will have a heavy presence of PAAF pathfiners, guides and logistical officers.

The passage where General-Captain Chan Geraith lays out his thoughts to his staff shows too shrewd a man not to have PAAF officers in the meeting to begin working out protocol and procedure for using those PAAF pathfiners, guides and logistical officers to move his vanguard force...and in particular having a very motivated Regiment-Captain chan Skirthik in the room to lay that out.

The lack of PAAF presence in that scene utterly breaks the suspension of disbelief every author needs in his stories.

This is a classic "Hitler with the sweet disposition of Lassie" alternate history mistake.

Unless the Arcanans prevent the two forces from communicating in person. Chan Geraith spoke with Chan Skirthik at Crown Prince Janaki's funeral. That could have a special exception to the Arcanans deployment preventing such joining of forces, even for meetings.

My read of the first three snippets suggest that the Arcanan force can prevent forces from moving up or down the Cut. It stands to reason that moving military forces through the Cut will be an invitation for an attack. Not sure if anything else is allowed through or not.

Mil-tech bard wrote:It is clear from this --

brnicholas wrote:When it comes to preparing the logistics of this move I agree he needs to be involved but what makes you think this meeting is about logistics?

As I read it Chan Geraith arrived, with his staff and 3000 troops, somewhere between two days and a week ago to take command of all Sharonan forces at the front. They immediately spread out trying to get the new forces deployed and learn everything they needed to know to command effectively. Once that process was well underway and Chan Geraith had some idea of what he wanted to do, he called his staff together for a meeting where the key things that had been learned (or confirmed) about the situation could be shared with everyone and he could lay out his battle plan, in its bare outline, which is all he has right now, for their input. Since it wasn't immediately poked full of holes they will go out from this meeting and start fleshing it out and making sure it is really workable. The local experts will certainly need to be involved in filling in the details but I don't see why them not being present at this meeting is such a problem since Chan Geraith is doing little more then saying things the locals already know and brainstorming.

Nicholas

...that you are unaware of the mindset of a professional military officer.

The 3rd Dragoon's are roughly in the position of the US Army 1st Cavalry Division about to conduct an amphibious operation and deliberately keeping USMC officers out of the room.

USMC officers who had just fought the enemy, knew the ground where the 1st Cavalry is going and have a 70(+) year history in opposed, combined arms, joint service, amphibious landings to give logistical and operational tips to the "amphibious virgin" 1st Cavalry Division.

The Portal Authority Armed Forces (PAAF) specialize in projecting military power over thousands of miles, and at the end of that projection they build a fort and map the surrounding area for water and other terrain features a the fort and on the path to it, to speed the economic development of that area.

The 3rd Dragoon's are going over several thousands of miles of howling wilderness that PAAF forces have pioneered and know where ALL THE WATER SOURCES FOR HORSES AND OTHER DRAFT ANIMALS ARE.

A file is not the man and a map is not the terrain.

Any 3rd Dragoon's force, which ever portal chain they are going up, will have a heavy presence of PAAF pathfiners, guides and logistical officers.

The passage where General-Captain Chan Geraith lays out his thoughts to his staff shows too shrewd a man not to have PAAF officers in the meeting to begin working out protocol and procedure for using those PAAF pathfiners, guides and logistical officers to move his vanguard force...and in particular having a very motivated Regiment-Captain chan Skirthik in the room to lay that out.

The lack of PAAF presence in that scene utterly breaks the suspension of disbelief every author needs in his stories.

This is a classic "Hitler with the sweet disposition of Lassie" alternate history mistake.

I disagree with this --

PeterZ wrote:Unless the Arcanans prevent the two forces from communicating in person. Chan Geraith spoke with Chan Skirthik at Crown Prince Janaki's funeral. That could have a special exception to the Arcanans deployment preventing such joining of forces, even for meetings.

My read of the first three snippets suggest that the Arcanan force can prevent forces from moving up or down the Cut. It stands to reason that moving military forces through the Cut will be an invitation for an attack. Not sure if anything else is allowed through or not.

The Sharonans own the cut.

It is all on the Traisum side of the gate, so distance viewer directed Sharonan mortars will kill any Arcanian dragon delivered observation party operating there.

Then why not simply move to Fort Salby directly? Why do the end around through the parallel line? Chan Geraith seemed awfully concerned about fighting his way to the Fort. Enough so that he considers the offensives through the second front.

No. The Arcanans control the ramp and with the ramp access to Ft Salby.

Mil-tech bard wrote:I disagree with this --

PeterZ wrote:Unless the Arcanans prevent the two forces from communicating in person. Chan Geraith spoke with Chan Skirthik at Crown Prince Janaki's funeral. That could have a special exception to the Arcanans deployment preventing such joining of forces, even for meetings.

My read of the first three snippets suggest that the Arcanan force can prevent forces from moving up or down the Cut. It stands to reason that moving military forces through the Cut will be an invitation for an attack. Not sure if anything else is allowed through or not.

The Sharonans own the cut.

It is all on the Traisum side of the gate, so distance viewer directed Sharonan mortars will kill any Arcanian dragon delivered observation party operating there.

Peter Z,

We have been through this topic before.

PeterZ wrote:Then why not simply move to Fort Salby directly? Why do the end around through the parallel line? Chan Geraith seemed awfully concerned about fighting his way to the Fort. Enough so that he considers the offensives through the second front.

No. The Arcanans control the ramp and with the ramp access to Ft Salby.

Ft. Salby commands the approached to the cut on the Traisum side of the portal. That was why the Arcanians wanted it as key terrain to plug the approach up chain.

As for General-Captain Chan Geraith reluctance to go down the cut, that you may not remember the Heavy Cavalry pods and the Arcanian combat engineers in them doesn't mean General-Captain Chan Geraith has.

General-Captain Chan Geraith has to consider the possibility of a quick air mobile operation by the Arcanians to place a Cavalry levitation pod worth of demo spells equipped combat engineers to drop large parts of the cut on the heads of his troops in column march down the cut.

The way to take the cut is to clear the high ground above it and garrison it with Sharonan heavy weapons.

Whether that has been done yet hasn't been shown.