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All the idiots on the Arcanan side?

"Hell's Gate" and "Hell Hath No Fury", by David, Linda Evans, and Joelle Presby, take the clash of science and magic to a whole new dimension...join us in a friendly discussion of this engrossing series!
Re: All the idiots on the Arcanan side?
Post by n7axw   » Sun Jul 19, 2015 10:09 pm

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PeterZ wrote:Is that not at its core prejudice? They were talking already. They could have secured information through diplomacy....er spying. They could have found what they needed to find out before they attacked. Their magic is unknown to these uncivilised others.

They did not. Their kneejerk reaction of treating the other without the basic considerations they would treat other Arcanans is prejudice and in many cases could well be called bigotry.



I have no problem with your asertion here, Peter. I would point out that the people doing the torturing or encouraging others to torture probably would in a different context torture Arcanans as well. There is plenty of evidence in the books that prejudice and bigotry were alive and well on Arcana well before the Sharonans happened by.

Don
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: All the idiots on the Arcanan side?
Post by PeterZ   » Sun Jul 19, 2015 11:53 pm

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My turn to agree, Don. I will still hold that prejudice allowed so many others to accept that Sharonans were being abused and murdered. Some resisted and a few were vehement in their resistance, sure. More however did not resist hard enough.

n7axw wrote:
PeterZ wrote:Is that not at its core prejudice? They were talking already. They could have secured information through diplomacy....er spying. They could have found what they needed to find out before they attacked. Their magic is unknown to these uncivilised others.

They did not. Their kneejerk reaction of treating the other without the basic considerations they would treat other Arcanans is prejudice and in many cases could well be called bigotry.



I have no problem with your asertion here, Peter. I would point out that the people doing the torturing or encouraging others to torture probably would in a different context torture Arcanans as well. There is plenty of evidence in the books that prejudice and bigotry were alive and well on Arcana well before the Sharonans happened by.

Don
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Re: All the idiots on the Arcanan side?
Post by brnicholas   » Mon Jul 20, 2015 10:08 am

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And I am inclined to think that human nature (including the prejudice against outsiders that is common to all human cultures) is sufficient to explain their behavior. Can you come up with any example from Earth's history where resistance from the rank and file of a military unit to the mistreatment of prisoners, when that mistreatment had been approved by their officers, was enough to stop the mistreatment?

If not then the prejudice you are talking about is not enough to justify the earlier claim that "Arcanans are prone to prejudice and bigotry when it comes to non-magic using peoples" at least in so far as that is a statement about Arcanans in particular instead of all humans in dealing with outsiders.

Nicholas

PeterZ wrote:My turn to agree, Don. I will still hold that prejudice allowed so many others to accept that Sharonans were being abused and murdered. Some resisted and a few were vehement in their resistance, sure. More however did not resist hard enough.

n7axw wrote:
I have no problem with your asertion here, Peter. I would point out that the people doing the torturing or encouraging others to torture probably would in a different context torture Arcanans as well. There is plenty of evidence in the books that prejudice and bigotry were alive and well on Arcana well before the Sharonans happened by.

Don
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Re: All the idiots on the Arcanan side?
Post by Howard T. Map-addict   » Mon Jul 20, 2015 10:10 am

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So, Peter, my reply hits a post of yours again,
instead of a nearby post by one who agrees with you.
Please don't take this reply personally;
it applies to what you all are agreeing with.

I find that I do not agree.
The "kneejerk reaction" of aggression and torture
belonged to mul Gurthak and vos Hoven, both Mythalyns,
Shevan Garlath and H Thalmyr, the stupidest ones,
and Neshok, who lacks the inhibitions of morality.

Those other Arcanans who murdered, tortured, and
otherwise broke the Kerallian Accords,
had been lied to and otherwise deceived deliberately,
by having been told that Sharonans had murdered and
tortured their prisoners, especial Halathyn.
Thus soldiers such as Senior Sword Kalcyr and Platoon
Sword Norm thought that they were retaliating in kind.
Norn was shocked and repentant when Harnak told him
the truth.

I find that the "kneejerk reaction" of Arcanan
soldiers is that of 50 Sharma, unless they are
deliberately taught otherwise, and even then those
such as Sharma can reject that bad teaching.

The First Point below, Arcanans did find much by
spying, such as the number of Sharonans defending
HG Lines (about 800).
They also learned things by diplomacy, but then
the diplomats lied.

HTM

PeterZ wrote:Is that not at its core prejudice? They were talking already. They could have secured information through diplomacy....er spying. They could have found what they needed to find out before they attacked. Their magic is unknown to these uncivilised others.

They did not. Their kneejerk reaction of treating the other without the basic considerations they would treat other Arcanans is prejudice and in many cases could well be called bigotry.

{snip - htm}

So it's possible that any foe of unknown abilities, even an Arcanan one, would be just as likely to be tortured as the Sharonians are, at least by the military. Yes, at least one of the noncoms told to stop abusing them protested that they were from a different universe, but I don't remember that being said by others. And it's very easy for people to have an "us versus them" mentality for people that are relatively alike, even inside their own country.
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Re: All the idiots on the Arcanan side?
Post by brnicholas   » Mon Jul 20, 2015 10:24 am

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Hell's Gate chapters 37-39 describe Jasek and party's visit to Fort Talon where mul Gurthik was in command and Neshok was in charge of intelligence.

At that fort, you are correct both Jasak and Gadrial expected that Shaylar and Jathmar would have been questioned by torture the moment they were separated from them in Andaran military custody and took forceful precautions to prevent that.

My impression from those chapters is that what happened at Fort Talon was unique. Everywhere else Jasek made his position clear and didn't have significant problems or need to take such radical precautions.

In addition what they seemed to be afraid of was not that mul Gurthik would bring sufficient force to bear to seize them, with over 1000 men at Fort Talon such force was available, but that Neshok would make them disappear. So what they feared was Neshok and mul Gurthik with a small group of like minded individuals acting mostly alone. Neshok is twice described as a psychopath so it seems extremely likely that he would torture Arcanans if he thought he could get away with it. We see mul Gurthik abusing a threatening to murder vos Hoven and planning to murder several other Arcanans so it is just about certain that he would torture Arcanans if he thought it advanced his goals. The passage tells us nothing about Harshu or even about how the mostly Andaran soldiers at Fort Talon would have responded if the heir of Garth Showma had tried to organize a mutiny over the treatment of his Shardoni.

Nicholas
Mil-tech bard wrote:This --

The line I bolded is the point on which we disagree. I think Harshu would have treated Arcanan opponents the same way in a similar situation. I see nothing in the text that implies otherwise and significant evidence that Harshu feels major guilt about how he is treating Sharonans. That guilt implies he is thinking of them as humans just like Arcanans.



...is not supported by the text in Chapter 37 of HELLS GATE.

Both Jasak and Gadrial expected that Shaylar and Jathmar would have been questioned by torture the moment they were separated from them in Andaran military custody.

This is why Jasak made clear Shaylar and Jathmar were his shardoni and it is also why Gadrial guarded Shaylar and Jathmar from Neshok et al with combat magics when Jasak went to his interview with mul Gurthak.

Gadrial went out of her way to underline to Neshok (and any Andaran glory seekers like him) the immediately lethal threat -- to back up any future political/legal retribution from Jasak's father -- for "harshly questioning" Jasak's shardoni.

See pages 598 thru 606 in HELLS GATE.
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Re: All the idiots on the Arcanan side?
Post by Howard T. Map-addict   » Mon Jul 20, 2015 10:42 am

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Between Klian's Fort Rycharn and Gurthak's Fort Talon,
Jasak's crew stopped at Fort Wyvern, where IfIRC
500 Waysal Grantyl gave them some problems about
Jathmar & Shaylar which required "persuasion" to
overcome.
For What It's Worth.

HTM

brnicholas wrote:Hell's Gate chapters 37-39 describe Jasek and party's visit to Fort Talon where mul Gurthak was in command and Neshok was in charge of intelligence.

At that fort, you are correct both Jasak and Gadrial expected that Shaylar and Jathmar would have been questioned by torture the moment they were separated from them in Andaran military custody and took forceful precautions to prevent that.

My impression from those chapters is that what happened at Fort Talon was unique. Everywhere else Jasek made his position clear and didn't have significant problems or need to take such radical precautions.

{snip - htm}

Nicholas
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Re: All the idiots on the Arcanan side?
Post by brnicholas   » Mon Jul 20, 2015 11:14 am

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True, but they problem he gave them was that he wanted to lock Jathmar and Shaylar in his jail. I don't see anything that indicates he attempted to harm them.

Nicholas

Howard T. Map-addict wrote:Between Klian's Fort Rycharn and Gurthak's Fort Talon,
Jasak's crew stopped at Fort Wyvern, where IfIRC
500 Waysal Grantyl gave them some problems about
Jathmar & Shaylar which required "persuasion" to
overcome.
For What It's Worth.

HTM

brnicholas wrote:Hell's Gate chapters 37-39 describe Jasek and party's visit to Fort Talon where mul Gurthak was in command and Neshok was in charge of intelligence.

At that fort, you are correct both Jasak and Gadrial expected that Shaylar and Jathmar would have been questioned by torture the moment they were separated from them in Andaran military custody and took forceful precautions to prevent that.

My impression from those chapters is that what happened at Fort Talon was unique. Everywhere else Jasek made his position clear and didn't have significant problems or need to take such radical precautions.

{snip - htm}

Nicholas
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Re: All the idiots on the Arcanan side?
Post by PeterZ   » Mon Jul 20, 2015 11:38 am

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Posts: 6351
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Location: Colorado

Howard,

I grant the the instigators are Mythalyn bigots or amoral. They lied to all the others. All granted.

Why did all those who were lied to believe the Accords do not apply to Sharonans? Why do they accept uncorroborated reports that were expressly stipulated so as proof for justifications to ignore the Accords? Are the Accords simply gilding that ever nation tours but none follow?

Those others that believed the lie at their core accepted that known differences of the Sharonans made them different enough to justify not complying with the Accords. It wasn't until the Arcanans repatriated the prisoners that individuals began to learn the truth. Initial reactions to the truth suggested that for most their prejudice isn't bigotry.

The accepted an unsubstatiated lie and acted horribly. So horribly they accepted the breaking of their own laws if not contributing to breaking those laws. That's the sort of prejudice any human that can not share the direct experiences of others is subject to. The Arcanan response to the temptation towards prejudice is also what might be expected of humanity in general.

Howard T. Map-addict wrote:So, Peter, my reply hits a post of yours again,
instead of a nearby post by one who agrees with you.
Please don't take this reply personally;
it applies to what you all are agreeing with.

I find that I do not agree.
The "kneejerk reaction" of aggression and torture
belonged to mul Gurthak and vos Hoven, both Mythalyns,
Shevan Garlath and H Thalmyr, the stupidest ones,
and Neshok, who lacks the inhibitions of morality.

Those other Arcanans who murdered, tortured, and
otherwise broke the Kerallian Accords,
had been lied to and otherwise deceived deliberately,
by having been told that Sharonans had murdered and
tortured their prisoners, especial Halathyn.
Thus soldiers such as Senior Sword Kalcyr and Platoon
Sword Norm thought that they were retaliating in kind.
Norn was shocked and repentant when Harnak told him
the truth.

I find that the "kneejerk reaction" of Arcanan
soldiers is that of 50 Sharma, unless they are
deliberately taught otherwise, and even then those
such as Sharma can reject that bad teaching.

The First Point below, Arcanans did find much by
spying, such as the number of Sharonans defending
HG Lines (about 800).
They also learned things by diplomacy, but then
the diplomats lied.

HTM

PeterZ wrote:Is that not at its core prejudice? They were talking already. They could have secured information through diplomacy....er spying. They could have found what they needed to find out before they attacked. Their magic is unknown to these uncivilised others.

They did not. Their kneejerk reaction of treating the other without the basic considerations they would treat other Arcanans is prejudice and in many cases could well be called bigotry.

{snip - htm}

So it's possible that any foe of unknown abilities, even an Arcanan one, would be just as likely to be tortured as the Sharonians are, at least by the military. Yes, at least one of the noncoms told to stop abusing them protested that they were from a different universe, but I don't remember that being said by others. And it's very easy for people to have an "us versus them" mentality for people that are relatively alike, even inside their own country.
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Re: All the idiots on the Arcanan side?
Post by brnicholas   » Mon Jul 20, 2015 12:56 pm

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I agree!

Nicholas

PeterZ wrote:Those others that believed the lie at their core accepted that known differences of the Sharonans made them different enough to justify not complying with the Accords. It wasn't until the Arcanans repatriated the prisoners that individuals began to learn the truth. Initial reactions to the truth suggested that for most their prejudice isn't bigotry.

The accepted an unsubstatiated lie and acted horribly. So horribly they accepted the breaking of their own laws if not contributing to breaking those laws. That's the sort of prejudice any human that can not share the direct experiences of others is subject to. The Arcanan response to the temptation towards prejudice is also what might be expected of humanity in general.

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Re: All the idiots on the Arcanan side?
Post by PeterZ   » Mon Jul 20, 2015 3:31 pm

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My point, Nicholas, was that the absence of magic would make Sharona's civilization phenomenally bizarre. Its members would be especially prone to be considered "Other!" by Arcanans.


brnicholas wrote:And I am inclined to think that human nature (including the prejudice against outsiders that is common to all human cultures) is sufficient to explain their behavior. Can you come up with any example from Earth's history where resistance from the rank and file of a military unit to the mistreatment of prisoners, when that mistreatment had been approved by their officers, was enough to stop the mistreatment?

If not then the prejudice you are talking about is not enough to justify the earlier claim that "Arcanans are prone to prejudice and bigotry when it comes to non-magic using peoples" at least in so far as that is a statement about Arcanans in particular instead of all humans in dealing with outsiders.

Nicholas
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