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Heads of State Unable to Read a Treaty???

"Hell's Gate" and "Hell Hath No Fury", by David, Linda Evans, and Joelle Presby, take the clash of science and magic to a whole new dimension...join us in a friendly discussion of this engrossing series!
Re: Heads of State Unable to Read a Treaty???
Post by bkwormlisa   » Sun Jun 21, 2015 9:19 am

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At the end of HHNF, when chan Skithrik asked Toralk to repeat his offers in front of a Sifter, Toralk was able to identify Sifter as meaning someone with a Talent for determining the truth of a statement. I would assume Neshok tortured descriptions of most of the Talents out of his prisoners. And if Toralk knows it, it was presumably reported back to higher command, so mul Gurthak ought to know now. I'd guess it's more likely he doesn't intend to ever be in a position where a Sifter could judge the truth of his statements.

When Jasak arrested vos Hoven, he thought that vos Hoven couldn't possibly believe he could get around the verifier spells used at trials. So Jasak at least thinks magisters can't get around them. Whether or not that's true for the Mythalan conspiracy, however, is something we certainly don't know yet.
Keith_w wrote:
Thorby wrote:<snipped for brevity>
And it raises the question of how mul Gurthak and crew think they're going to get away with their lies, and their responsibility for the third, and most serious, attack on Sharona. Are truth spells rarer than Sifters? Did Skirvon avoid the use of a truth spell because that would have raised suspicions about the other functions of his crystals? Since truth detection depends on magic, can a magistron block or subvert a truth spell? If so, then the Sifter has the advantage.


At this point there is no indication that Gurthak is aware that Sniffers exist, so he probably thinks that his personal ability to lie with a straight face will carry through. I would think that the Arcanans do not have the equivalent of Sniffers, otherwise they would probably be used to detect plots to overthrow the current regime, or at least should be :D .


Spoiler warning



















In the fourth snippet, Toralk wonders if the Sharonians have some sort of Talent that let them see the future and how the Arcanan forces would attack. He thinks that's surely the only way they could have pulled off that machine-gun ambush that killed both yellows. So whatever other Talents they know about, Glimpses aren't among them. They might not even know about Precognition, because it's really easy to get the two mixed up.
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Re: Heads of State Unable to Read a Treaty???
Post by brnicholas   » Sun Jun 21, 2015 3:01 pm

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I suspect that whether or not the Mythalan conspiracy can get around verifier spells or not won't be relevant to whatever mul Gurthak has planned for Jasak. I suspect that because while they might kill a couple of random soldiers quietly to silence witnesses killing Gadrial Kelbryan is another matter entirely. I doubt they will risk that. And having a verifier spell say vos Hoven is telling the truth about something she knows is false, is an even worse idea for them then killing her, because it would start her wondering about why the verifier spell didn't work.

Besides, in this case I don't think they need to fool the spells. All vos Hoven needs to do is convince himself that Jasak responded to Osama's death by going out to seek venegence, which is easy enough to do, several on this board have come close to arguing that, and report that at the trial. Mythalan influenced press can make sure it is vos Hoven's version that gets the most public coverage and that will ruin Jasak's reputation, which is all mul Gurthak seems to require here, regardless of whether the judges believe Jasak and Gadrial or vos Hoven.

Nicholas

bkwormlisa wrote:...snipped....

When Jasak arrested vos Hoven, he thought that vos Hoven couldn't possibly believe he could get around the verifier spells used at trials. So Jasak at least thinks magisters can't get around them. Whether or not that's true for the Mythalan conspiracy, however, is something we certainly don't know yet.
...snipped...
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Re: Results of mul Gurthak's gambit-Speculation
Post by PeterZ   » Mon Jun 22, 2015 9:01 am

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No, mul Gurthak doesn't even need to destroy Jasak's reputation. He can let vos Hoven's bigotry speak for itself and side with Jasak in that dispute. He can present a truly disinterested and critical analysis of the First Contact. He will present documented orders for his desired outcome of negotiations while preparing forces just in case things fall apart. Mul Gurthak is best served in supporting Jasak's decisions and recognizing the nobility of Jasak's throwback family.

Then there will arrive the documented abuses and the dishonorable response to negotiations perpetrated by the Andran led Union Military. They violated a truce Arcana requested. The Ransaran diplomats used an Andran Honor Guard to attack Sharonan diplomats during negotiations. Andran forces will have targeted civilians and children for murder. They will have brutally tortured and killed POWs. They systematically killed Voices.

The Mythalan argument to the growing Ransar delegation to the Union government will be; even while commanded by a family whose honor is un-besmirched, the Andran military cannot be trusted to rise above their obvious bigotry. Mythal and Ransar must join to mitigate this cluster grope of Andran manufacture. After news of Janaki's death, even Ransar will come to the conclusion that Sharona will not trust even honest efforts to establish a peace. They have to support a growing war effort.

I see no way that this outcome will be avoided. Mythal will promote officers in the Union military that will be a dog's breakfast of skillsets and Sharona will find themselves with control of Hell's Gate and the Swamp portal at Mahritha. I believe that both sides will spar a bit with naval battles in Mahritha. Wouldn't be surprised that cetaceans contribute there.

brnicholas wrote:I suspect that whether or not the Mythalan conspiracy can get around verifier spells or not won't be relevant to whatever mul Gurthak has planned for Jasak. I suspect that because while they might kill a couple of random soldiers quietly to silence witnesses killing Gadrial Kelbryan is another matter entirely. I doubt they will risk that. And having a verifier spell say vos Hoven is telling the truth about something she knows is false, is an even worse idea for them then killing her, because it would start her wondering about why the verifier spell didn't work.

Besides, in this case I don't think they need to fool the spells. All vos Hoven needs to do is convince himself that Jasak responded to Osama's death by going out to seek venegence, which is easy enough to do, several on this board have come close to arguing that, and report that at the trial. Mythalan influenced press can make sure it is vos Hoven's version that gets the most public coverage and that will ruin Jasak's reputation, which is all mul Gurthak seems to require here, regardless of whether the judges believe Jasak and Gadrial or vos Hoven.

Nicholas

bkwormlisa wrote:...snipped....

When Jasak arrested vos Hoven, he thought that vos Hoven couldn't possibly believe he could get around the verifier spells used at trials. So Jasak at least thinks magisters can't get around them. Whether or not that's true for the Mythalan conspiracy, however, is something we certainly don't know yet.
...snipped...
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Re: Results of mul Gurthak's gambit-Speculation
Post by brnicholas   » Mon Jun 22, 2015 1:07 pm

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That is an interesting and credible theory. It might even be an argument mul Gurthak's superiors try at some point. My interpretation of mul Gurthak's current plans is based on the following passage from Hell's Gate (mul Gurthak's interviews with vos Hoven) and I recall nothing afterwards that would indicate a change.

Hell's Gate wrote:Garth Showma was the key, the linchpin of Andaran political power. If Garth Showma could be brought down, it would be far easier to pick off the other Andaran noble houses, and that had to be done. Parliament trusted the Andaran aristocracy to run the military for it, because Andarans were good at it. Because they liked to do it, and everyone knew they were sufficiently honorbound to be worthy of others' trust.

Which meant that the only way to replace the Andaran military leaders was to destroy that faith in them. The Council of Twelve had spent thirty-plus long, patient years getting shakira officers into the field army, where they could work their way up the command-grade ranks. The plan remained some years short of fruition, but the necessary cadre of highly ranked shakira officers, men with "Arcana's best interests" in mind, who had distanced themselves from the stereotypical shakira arrogance and cultural chauvinism by choosing to serve the mainstream of Arcanan society, would be ready when—if—the time came for them to step into the gap left by Andara's disgrace and take charge.

But for the plan to work, Andara had to be disgraced, starting with Garth Showma, and the imbecile on mul Gurthak's office floor had botched one of the most critical components of the entire plan. Jasak Olderhan had been supposed to be the chink in his father's armor. A source for useful information, true, but even more the tool who could be led into the carefully prepared trap with all the exquisitely devised "evidence" to prove to all of Arcana that the heir to the most powerful Andaran aristocrat of them all had disgraced himself through his gross violation of the honor code he and his fellow aristocrats were supposed to hold so dear.


PeterZ wrote:No, mul Gurthak doesn't even need to destroy Jasak's reputation. He can let vos Hoven's bigotry speak for itself and side with Jasak in that dispute. He can present a truly disinterested and critical analysis of the First Contact. He will present documented orders for his desired outcome of negotiations while preparing forces just in case things fall apart. Mul Gurthak is best served in supporting Jasak's decisions and recognizing the nobility of Jasak's throwback family.

Then there will arrive the documented abuses and the dishonorable response to negotiations perpetrated by the Andran led Union Military. They violated a truce Arcana requested. The Ransaran diplomats used an Andran Honor Guard to attack Sharonan diplomats during negotiations. Andran forces will have targeted civilians and children for murder. They will have brutally tortured and killed POWs. They systematically killed Voices.

The Mythalan argument to the growing Ransar delegation to the Union government will be; even while commanded by a family whose honor is un-besmirched, the Andran military cannot be trusted to rise above their obvious bigotry. Mythal and Ransar must join to mitigate this cluster grope of Andran manufacture. After news of Janaki's death, even Ransar will come to the conclusion that Sharona will not trust even honest efforts to establish a peace. They have to support a growing war effort.

I see no way that this outcome will be avoided. Mythal will promote officers in the Union military that will be a dog's breakfast of skillsets and Sharona will find themselves with control of Hell's Gate and the Swamp portal at Mahritha. I believe that both sides will spar a bit with naval battles in Mahritha. Wouldn't be surprised that cetaceans contribute there.

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Re: Results of mul Gurthak's gambit-Speculation
Post by SCC   » Mon Jun 22, 2015 3:21 pm

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PeterZ wrote:I see no way that this outcome will be avoided. Mythal will promote officers in the Union military that will be a dog's breakfast of skillsets and Sharona will find themselves with control of Hell's Gate and the Swamp portal at Mahritha. I believe that both sides will spar a bit with naval battles in Mahritha. Wouldn't be surprised that cetaceans contribute there.

No, they'll simply build railways capable of moving whole ships and move something like the entire Ternathian first fleet to the front
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Re: Results of mul Gurthak's gambit-Speculation
Post by PeterZ   » Mon Jun 22, 2015 3:22 pm

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I agree that this is the plan. I would add that executing the plan is not necessary as originally envisioned. It is sufficient that enough Andarans are NOT honor bound enough so that Andaran control of the military in these uncertain and delicate times is counter productive.

brnicholas wrote:That is an interesting and credible theory. It might even be an argument mul Gurthak's superiors try at some point. My interpretation of mul Gurthak's current plans is based on the following passage from Hell's Gate (mul Gurthak's interviews with vos Hoven) and I recall nothing afterwards that would indicate a change.
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Re: Results of mul Gurthak's gambit-Speculation
Post by PeterZ   » Mon Jun 22, 2015 3:23 pm

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Ok, That's much better! :-)

SCC wrote:
PeterZ wrote:I see no way that this outcome will be avoided. Mythal will promote officers in the Union military that will be a dog's breakfast of skillsets and Sharona will find themselves with control of Hell's Gate and the Swamp portal at Mahritha. I believe that both sides will spar a bit with naval battles in Mahritha. Wouldn't be surprised that cetaceans contribute there.

No, they'll simply build railways capable of moving whole ships and move something like the entire Ternathian first fleet to the front
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Re: Results of mul Gurthak's gambit-Speculation
Post by brnicholas   » Mon Jun 22, 2015 6:17 pm

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SCC wrote:
PeterZ wrote:I see no way that this outcome will be avoided. Mythal will promote officers in the Union military that will be a dog's breakfast of skillsets and Sharona will find themselves with control of Hell's Gate and the Swamp portal at Mahritha. I believe that both sides will spar a bit with naval battles in Mahritha. Wouldn't be surprised that cetaceans contribute there.

No, they'll simply build railways capable of moving whole ships and move something like the entire Ternathian first fleet to the front


I suspect that would take way to long. Surely someone has a design for a cruiser that can be built in pieces and shipped by rail just like the standard freighters are. Then you don't need to rebuild the whole railway to move forward.

Nicholas
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Re: Heads of State Unable to Read a Treaty???
Post by Astelon   » Mon Jun 22, 2015 6:26 pm

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Can you imagine wooden hulled fire ball throwing Arcanan vessel against armored cruisers and destroyers? The arcanans could run away, maybe. But actually damaging a vessel may be extremely difficult for them. Surviving sharonian artillery would be impossible.
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Re: Results of mul Gurthak's gambit-Speculation
Post by SCC   » Tue Jun 23, 2015 4:57 am

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brnicholas wrote:
SCC wrote:No, they'll simply build railways capable of moving whole ships and move something like the entire Ternathian first fleet to the front


I suspect that would take way to long. Surely someone has a design for a cruiser that can be built in pieces and shipped by rail just like the standard freighters are. Then you don't need to rebuild the whole railway to move forward.

Nicholas

All you need for ship railways are the right line (They MUST be a fixed distance apart the entire time), special rolling stock and engines and some REALLY big cranes.

Here's a link to a Canadian attempt: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chignecto_Ship_Railway
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