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Heads of State Unable to Read a Treaty???

"Hell's Gate" and "Hell Hath No Fury", by David, Linda Evans, and Joelle Presby, take the clash of science and magic to a whole new dimension...join us in a friendly discussion of this engrossing series!
Re: Heads of State Unable to Read a Treaty???
Post by Louis R   » Thu Jun 04, 2015 8:45 am

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uh... no

Unless I misremember - not unlikely - there have already been a number of Empresses styled 'Great'. Nothing new about Andrin the Great.

brnicholas wrote:I also smell Empress Andrin in the near future but when Louis R speaks of Andrin chan Calirath he is thinking far far too small. Before this is over she is more likely to be Empress Andrin the Great or Empress Andrin Hammer of Arcana. In two centuries the Caliraths will be speaking of themselves as the descendents of Andrin, Halian and Erthain the Great.

Nicholas

tinfoil wrote:Anyone else smelling a plot sequence similar to Roger/Elizabeth in Honorverse where they off the 'old guy' in hopes of creating a pliable female monarch, but getting the exact opposite?
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Re: Heads of State Unable to Read a Treaty???
Post by Astelon   » Thu Jun 04, 2015 8:15 pm

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brnicholas wrote:I agree that stopping the atrocities is very very desirable...


I agree with most of what you are saying. There isn't much that any official policy will do to stop the other side from committing atrocities during this war. With no neutral third party, respected watch dog groups, or any agreed upon norms it just isn't going to happen.

The policy that is set and followed, by each side, in the treatment of prisoners and civilians will determine the tone and desires of any negotiations and diplomacy after the war. If another war were to be fought, at a later date, then those policies and negotiations would be very important with regards to the treatment of your own people. It's not this war I'm worried about, it's what's next. Although Arcana has already shot themselves in the foot in that regard, it's now a question of did they shoot their foot with an arbelest, or a fire thrower.

brnicholas wrote:Chan Geraith will give both written and verbal orders to the commander of the picket and those will doubtless include instructions regarding both how to go about attacking Arcanan pickets and any Arcanans which survive the attacks.


I doubt that Sharonan forces attacking pickets will be able to take many, if any, prisoners. They likely won't have the extra manpower to guard and transport them, or the personnel to care for the wounded. As you pointed out what those prisoners know is very important, that may mean arrangements will be made despite the difficulty, or that chan Geraith may depend on prisoners from larger battles to learn that information.
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Re: Heads of State Unable to Read a Treaty???
Post by brnicholas   » Fri Jun 05, 2015 8:18 am

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But "chan" is not a significant honor. It simply means that the person is a military veteran. Every person who enters the Ternathian armed forces is entitled to add it to his name from the moment he joins until his death. The only reason women don't get to use it is that they are not permitted to serve in the armed forces. Saying that Andrin as Empress in wartime, as the commander of the armed forces, is entitled to use it would be a break with tradition but would not be a significan honor.

On the other hand, while there are a few other "the greats" among the Rulers of Ternathia calling her Andrin the Great would put her in very select company.

Nicholas

Louis R wrote:uh... no

Unless I misremember - not unlikely - there have already been a number of Empresses styled 'Great'. Nothing new about Andrin the Great.

brnicholas wrote:I also smell Empress Andrin in the near future but when Louis R speaks of Andrin chan Calirath he is thinking far far too small. Before this is over she is more likely to be Empress Andrin the Great or Empress Andrin Hammer of Arcana. In two centuries the Caliraths will be speaking of themselves as the descendents of Andrin, Halian and Erthain the Great.

Nicholas

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Re: Heads of State Unable to Read a Treaty???
Post by Howard T. Map-addict   » Fri Jun 05, 2015 8:37 am

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If the Sharonans want to punish the actual killers of
their Voices, as well as the people in the Chain Of
Command who gave the orders,

Voice Erthik Varden at Fort Brithik (civilian)
was killed - shot on sight - by Com50 Iftar Halesak,
who is Com50 Thermyn Ulthar's brother in law.
Halesak is a Mythalan Garthan, with a family who are
all potentially important to the story.
Iftar's execution for murder,
or death in a reprisal killing,
would damage the chance of an important friendship
with this whole family of Garthans and their Andaran
soldier kin-by-marriage.
Already Ulthar has set Halesak straight on who did
what at First Fallen Timbers and First Hell's Gate,
as Sword Harnak set Sword Nourm straight later.

It was Senior Sword Barcan Kalcyr who ordered his
trooper Yurain Ranlak to murder Voice Syrail Targal.

Of course, the orders came via their Com100s and
Com500s from Com2000 Maynkos Harshu, on the advice
of Com500 Alivar Neshok. It is yet to be determined
how many of these officers will still be alive by the
time Sharonans take possession of their persons.
Remember, mul Garthik has Plans for some of them.

HTM

PeterZ wrote:I sort of think he did say to treat the warning system of the Arcanans just like the Arcanans treated Sharonan Voices. There were after all civilian Voices along that chain and yet no voices messages came through. Even if there were only military Voices, Voices were non-combatants for the most part. Some of them would have surrendered. If they did surrender, they could have broadcast messages until they connected with someone that had not been captured.

We know that people were listening for anything from Hell's Gate after the initial scheduled call was missed. Yet nothing made it in the 12 days since the offensive began to the Fort Salby attack. Not one Voice message was received.

I suspect that the last comment from chan Geraith indicates that he does assume captured Voices were killed and he does mean to return the favor to any Arcanan he can't find a use for.

The biggest problem is language. The voices tagging along might well be able learn an Arcanan language from a handful of prisoners. After learning the language, the utility of keeping long term prisoners shrinks. Broader policy might reach chan Geraith before he can initiate his own draconian policy.

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Re: Heads of State Unable to Read a Treaty???
Post by PeterZ   » Fri Jun 05, 2015 1:18 pm

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Howard T. Map-addict wrote:If the Sharonans want to punish the actual killers of
their Voices, as well as the people in the Chain Of
Command who gave the orders,

Voice Erthik Varden at Fort Brithik (civilian)
was killed - shot on sight - by Com50 Iftar Halesak,
who is Com50 Thermyn Ulthar's brother in law.
Halesak is a Mythalan Garthan, with a family who are
all potentially important to the story.
Iftar's execution for murder,
or death in a reprisal killing,
would damage the chance of an important friendship
with this whole family of Garthans and their Andaran
soldier kin-by-marriage.
Already Ulthar has set Halesak straight on who did
what at First Fallen Timbers and First Hell's Gate,
as Sword Harnak set Sword Nourm straight later.

It was Senior Sword Barcan Kalcyr who ordered his
trooper Yurain Ranlak to murder Voice Syrail Targal.

Of course, the orders came via their Com100s and
Com500s from Com2000 Maynkos Harshu, on the advice
of Com500 Alivar Neshok. It is yet to be determined
how many of these officers will still be alive by the
time Sharonans take possession of their persons.
Remember, mul Garthik has Plans for some of them.

HTM


That's just it Howard, does chan Geraith want to punish the guilty or present incentives to discourage his counter part from continuing this practice? I don't know yet. I suspect its a bit of both and toss in some pure vengeance to boot.
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Re: Heads of State Unable to Read a Treaty???
Post by Astelon   » Fri Jun 05, 2015 1:39 pm

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PeterZ wrote:That's just it Howard, does chan Geraith want to punish the guilty or present incentives to discourage his counter part from continuing this practice? I don't know yet. I suspect its a bit of both and toss in some pure vengeance to boot.


Punishing the guilty will discourage atrocities. As for Harshu not allowing them, it appears he is already taking steps to stop it, but will be a lot harder to stop than prevent. The problem for Harshu is that he already allowed torture and murder, even ordering murders of civilians, because of perceived military necessity. When it comes to ending the war, I don't see the Sharonans excepting anything less than his execution, along with others who carried out those orders, and their complete ownership of all territory up to and including Hell's gate.

Currently it appears that neither side can defeat the other, so a negotiated settlement, backed up by firepower and defensible positions is the most likely outcome. (Unless Arcana wants to start using WMD spells.)
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Re: Heads of State Unable to Read a Treaty???
Post by Mil-tech bard   » Fri Jun 05, 2015 3:31 pm

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The problem for Harshu isn't any of those things.

It is that the Sharona will find all of it, and add to it that he also ordered -- whether he realized it at the time or not -- the murder of children with voice talents.


Sharona's talent culture will not accept anything less than Harshu dead, a whole lot of dead Arcanian military from the invasion force who were involved in atrocities and all of Hells Gate in Sharona's hands.

And given that Voices have perfect recall...Sharona is quite literally never going to forget anything Arcania did.

Talk about poisoned relationships.





Astelon wrote: The problem for Harshu is that he already allowed torture and murder, even ordering murders of civilians, because of perceived military necessity. When it comes to ending the war, I don't see the Sharonans excepting anything less than his execution, along with others who carried out those orders, and their complete ownership of all territory up to and including Hell's gate.

Currently it appears that neither side can defeat the other, so a negotiated settlement, backed up by firepower and defensible positions is the most likely outcome. (Unless Arcana wants to start using WMD spells.)
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Re: Heads of State Unable to Read a Treaty???
Post by brnicholas   » Sat Jun 06, 2015 8:24 am

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I think you are both badly underestimating the problem that the Union of Arcana faces at this point.

Note it is not Harshu's problem because there is absolutely nothing he can do about it. Behaving honorably from here on and getting his men to do the same might make it a little better while hunting down the Sharonan civilians in hiding in the universes he captured (there aren't many but I expect a couple hundred) and killing them would make it a little worse. But really he can't effect it in a significant way.

The problem is that three times Sharona has tried to talk to Arcana. Three times Arcana has responded by attacking Sharona. Once could be explained away, twice maybe. Three times is policy! Facing an enemy who responds to negotiation with military force the only logical response for Sharona is to demand unconditional surrender. Negotiation isn't an option because Arcana will just use it as a cover to prepare to attack, for blowing trust to bits using Skirvon's honor guard in their attack is worse then torture. The Arcanan atrocities will only add emotional punch to the logical arguments for demanding unconditional surrender.

I do not believe Sharona will contemplate any peace that doesn't involve them dictating terms at gun point in Union City (Arcana's capital) until three things happen.
1) Sharona becomes convinced conquering Arcana is impossible.
2) Sharona begins experiencing widespread and severe war weariness.
3) Sharona learns enough about Arcana and acquires enough territory from Arcana to be convinced that if Arcana decides to attack them again they can stop them.

I don't see any of those things happening for at least a decade and I expect multiple decades before all of them are in place.

I know that RFC might pull something out of left field to overturn this but if he does it will be something really really unlikely. The only thing I can imagine right now that would do it would be if Arcana sent Shaylar and Jathmar to Sharona as their representatives with the power to cede extensive territories, offer extensive reparations and give Sharona an enormous amount of information about Arcana without getting anything in return but peace. I can't see that happening unless Arcana is on the verge of losing and at these distances that should take decades too.

Nicholas

Mil-tech bard wrote:The problem for Harshu isn't any of those things.

It is that the Sharona will find all of it, and add to it that he also ordered -- whether he realized it at the time or not -- the murder of children with voice talents.


Sharona's talent culture will not accept anything less than Harshu dead, a whole lot of dead Arcanian military from the invasion force who were involved in atrocities and all of Hells Gate in Sharona's hands.

And given that Voices have perfect recall...Sharona is quite literally never going to forget anything Arcania did.

Talk about poisoned relationships.





Astelon wrote: The problem for Harshu is that he already allowed torture and murder, even ordering murders of civilians, because of perceived military necessity. When it comes to ending the war, I don't see the Sharonans excepting anything less than his execution, along with others who carried out those orders, and their complete ownership of all territory up to and including Hell's gate.

Currently it appears that neither side can defeat the other, so a negotiated settlement, backed up by firepower and defensible positions is the most likely outcome. (Unless Arcana wants to start using WMD spells.)
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Re: Heads of State Unable to Read a Treaty???
Post by Jonathan_S   » Sat Jun 06, 2015 9:19 am

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brnicholas wrote:The problem is that three times Sharona has tried to talk to Arcana. Three times Arcana has responded by attacking Sharona. Once could be explained away, twice maybe. Three times is policy! Facing an enemy who responds to negotiation with military force the only logical response for Sharona is to demand unconditional surrender. Negotiation isn't an option because Arcana will just use it as a cover to prepare to attack, for blowing trust to bits using Skirvon's honor guard in their attack is worse then torture. The Arcanan atrocities will only add emotional punch to the logical arguments for demanding unconditional surrender.

I do not believe Sharona will contemplate any peace that doesn't involve them dictating terms at gun point in Union City (Arcana's capital) until three things happen.
1) Sharona becomes convinced conquering Arcana is impossible.
2) Sharona begins experiencing widespread and severe war weariness.
3) Sharona learns enough about Arcana and acquires enough territory from Arcana to be convinced that if Arcana decides to attack them again they can stop them.

I don't see any of those things happening for at least a decade and I expect multiple decades before all of them are in place.

I know that RFC might pull something out of left field to overturn this but if he does it will be something really really unlikely. The only thing I can imagine right now that would do it would be if Arcana sent Shaylar and Jathmar to Sharona as their representatives with the power to cede extensive territories, offer extensive reparations and give Sharona an enormous amount of information about Arcana without getting anything in return but peace. I can't see that happening unless Arcana is on the verge of losing and at these distances that should take decades too.

Nicholas
One out of left field possibility would be for the information to break about the Mythalan conspiracy, and what it's members did to encourage this war to forward its ends.

That might cause the Union of Arcana to fracture; leading to a peace with the group led by Andara; or possibly even cooperation between Sharona and the Andarans against Mythal.
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Re: Heads of State Unable to Read a Treaty???
Post by Howard T. Map-addict   » Sat Jun 06, 2015 10:26 am

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Another out-of-leftfield (or centerfield) possibility
is for more Portals linking S & A to be discovered,
or to open, creating routes between S & A that are
shorter than 135,000 miles.
This distance is too long for anything but border wars.

Hell's Gate has seven Portals.
I would not be surprised if several of the other five
led back to S & A, and by shorter routes. Then there
are the Portals that lead to other Human worlds.

HTM

Jonathan_S wrote:at bottom.

brnicholas wrote:The problem is that three times Sharona has tried to talk to Arcana. Three times Arcana has responded by attacking Sharona. Once could be explained away, twice maybe. Three times is policy! Facing an enemy who responds to negotiation with military force the only logical response for Sharona is to demand unconditional surrender.
{snip - htm}
I do not believe Sharona will contemplate any peace that doesn't involve them dictating terms at gun point in (Arcana's capital) until three things happen.
1) Sharona becomes convinced conquering Arcana is impossible.
2) Sharona begins experiencing widespread and severe war weariness.
3) Sharona learns enough about Arcana and acquires enough territory from Arcana to be convinced that if Arcana decides to attack them again they can stop them.

I don't see any of those things happening for at least a decade and I expect multiple decades before all of them are in place.

I know that RFC might pull something out of left field to overturn this but if he does it will be something really really unlikely. {snip - htm}
Nicholas


J S replied:
One out of left field possibility would be for the information to break about the Mythalan conspiracy, and what it's members did to encourage this war to forward its ends.

That might cause the Union of Arcana to fracture; leading to a peace with the group led by Andara; or possibly even cooperation between Sharona and the Andarans against Mythal.
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