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Honorverse ramblings and musings

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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by SWM   » Sat May 23, 2015 8:57 pm

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cthia wrote:
swm wrote:I do not exactly yield to your point--I think you are saying practically the same thing that I did. I stated that Haven was trying to put pressure on Manticore. By that, I meant forcing it to reassign ships in response to the threat, in response to demands from the Manticoran Alliance members. So I think you are just restating what I said.

As originally promised, I am surprised that you do not yield.

I cannot agree with you here. If I did, then we'd both be wrong. We are not saying the same things.

Haven was not trying to pressure Manticore to simply reassign ships. Operation Stalking Horse was after a specific strategic objective - Grayson. Haven did not simply want Manticore to reassign ships. Haven wanted Manticore to possibly weaken Grayson. If Manticore would have simply reassigned ships in any manner short of leaving Grayson ill prepared would have signaled a failure of the objectives of Operation Stalking Horse.

The idea for Stalking Horse was conceived by Admiral Alexander Thurston. He and his staff designed a plan to capture the Candor and the Minette System, but more importantly, to draw attention away from Yeltsin's Star and Endicott, where Operation Dagger was to strike. (HH5)

Okay, drawing ships from Grayson was a specific goal. I don't see how what I said was incorrect. It was not specific enough for you, I can see, but it was not incorrect.
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by n7axw   » Sat May 23, 2015 9:32 pm

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I don't think that the importance of the system was a criterion for determining where FTL systems were used. Where the RMN had a fleet presence for whatever reason, the FTL systems were put into place for the reasons already stated.

To say that a system is too unimortant for an FTL system would be like saying that the system is too unimportant for an RMN squadron to take along a full magazine of missiles. The FTL sensor net was a fleet tool and is usally retrieved when the RMN left the system unless it was planning to return.

Don
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by cthia   » Sat May 23, 2015 9:34 pm

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cthia wrote:
swm wrote:I do not exactly yield to your point--I think you are saying practically the same thing that I did. I stated that Haven was trying to put pressure on Manticore. By that, I meant forcing it to reassign ships in response to the threat, in response to demands from the Manticoran Alliance members. So I think you are just restating what I said.

As originally promised, I am surprised that you do not yield.

I cannot agree with you here. If I did, then we'd both be wrong. We are not saying the same things.

Haven was not trying to pressure Manticore to simply reassign ships. Operation Stalking Horse was after a specific strategic objective - Grayson. Haven did not simply want Manticore to reassign ships. Haven wanted Manticore to possibly weaken Grayson. If Manticore would have simply reassigned ships in any manner short of leaving Grayson ill prepared would have signaled a failure of the objectives of Operation Stalking Horse.

The idea for Stalking Horse was conceived by Admiral Alexander Thurston. He and his staff designed a plan to capture the Candor and the Minette System, but more importantly, to draw attention away from Yeltsin's Star and Endicott, where Operation Dagger was to strike. (HH5)

SWM wrote:Okay, drawing ships from Grayson was a specific goal. I don't see how what I said was incorrect. It was not specific enough for you, I can see, but it was not incorrect.

You ever heard of lying by omission?
One lies by omission by omitting an important fact, deliberately leaving another person with a misconception.

This reeks of a similar gist.

Caparelli and Givens would make the distinction.
Janacek would be 'incorrect by omission.'
I don't see how what I said was incorrect.

Unless you are the GSN and a powerful Havenite force came tap dancing happily into the system demanding your surrender after you committed strategic suicide by reassigning your ship strength because Janacek was incorrect by omission.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by cthia   » Sat May 23, 2015 9:51 pm

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n7axw wrote:I don't think that the importance of the system was a criterion for determining where FTL systems were used. Where the RMN had a fleet presence for whatever reason, the FTL systems were put into place for the reasons already stated.

To say that a system is too unimortant for an FTL system would be like saying that the system is too unimportant for an RMN squadron to take along a full magazine of missiles. The FTL sensor net was a fleet tool and is usally retrieved when the RMN left the system unless it was planning to return.

Don

Not a good analogy Don, at least not from the bone I picked. The FTL platforms were not exactly drawing dust overstocked in the warehouse, AFAIK.

Question, in case I got it wrong.

The FTL net in Minette seems to imply a permanent system variant. Not deployed from ships???

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by SWM   » Sat May 23, 2015 10:38 pm

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cthia wrote:
n7axw wrote:I don't think that the importance of the system was a criterion for determining where FTL systems were used. Where the RMN had a fleet presence for whatever reason, the FTL systems were put into place for the reasons already stated.

To say that a system is too unimortant for an FTL system would be like saying that the system is too unimportant for an RMN squadron to take along a full magazine of missiles. The FTL sensor net was a fleet tool and is usally retrieved when the RMN left the system unless it was planning to return.

Don

Not a good analogy Don, at least not from the bone I picked. The FTL platforms were not exactly drawing dust overstocked in the warehouse, AFAIK.

Question, in case I got it wrong.

The FTL net in Minette seems to imply a permanent system variant. Not deployed from ships???

The receiving and transmission systems aboard stations would obviously not be deployed by ships. The systems around the perimeter of the system would necessarily be deployed by ships.

And I say again, I am pretty sure that all Manticoran Alliance member systems had FTL comm deployed as part of their defensive network.
[edited to remove accidental repetition]
Last edited by SWM on Sat May 23, 2015 11:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by SWM   » Sat May 23, 2015 10:42 pm

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cthia wrote:
SWM wrote:Okay, drawing ships from Grayson was a specific goal. I don't see how what I said was incorrect. It was not specific enough for you, I can see, but it was not incorrect.

You ever heard of lying by omission?
One lies by omission by omitting an important fact, deliberately leaving another person with a misconception.

This reeks of a similar gist.

Caparelli and Givens would make the distinction.
Janacek would be 'incorrect by omission.'
I don't see how what I said was incorrect.

Unless you are the GSN and a powerful Havenite force came tap dancing happily into the system demanding your surrender after you committed strategic suicide by reassigning your ship strength because Janacek was incorrect by omission.

Whoa, wait a minute! Now you are accusing me of lying?!

You asked:
cthia wrote: What I ultimately don't understand is what was the importance of Minette? Obviously it was important because, in retreating and giving up the system, Admiral Stanton was looking ahead to strategically make reaquiring Minette easier with his en passant tactic. (This is a perfect example of the passed pawn idea on the chess board projected onto a real battle field, which was not lost on me.)

I answered the question--it wasn't important except that it was a member of the Manticoran Alliance, and attacking or capturing it would force Manticore to move ships. No, I didn't mention that it would specifically force Manticore to move ships from Grayson, but that wasn't what you were asking. You were asking about Minette, and why it was important. Where the ships would have to come from is irrelevant to the question of the importance of Minette. I apologize for not adding details which were not relevant to the question, but I don't appreciate being accused of lying. I'm sure that isn't what you intended, but it is the implication you made.
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by n7axw   » Sat May 23, 2015 10:56 pm

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cthia wrote:
n7axw wrote:I don't think that the importance of the system was a criterion for determining where FTL systems were used. Where the RMN had a fleet presence for whatever reason, the FTL systems were put into place for the reasons already stated.

To say that a system is too unimortant for an FTL system would be like saying that the system is too unimportant for an RMN squadron to take along a full magazine of missiles. The FTL sensor net was a fleet tool and is usally retrieved when the RMN left the system unless it was planning to return.

Don

Not a good analogy Don, at least not from the bone I picked. The FTL platforms were not exactly drawing dust overstocked in the warehouse, AFAIK.

Question, in case I got it wrong.

The FTL net in Minette seems to imply a permanent system variant. Not deployed from ships???



As far as I know the FTL sensor nets are a constant from HoTQ on which would imply that from their inception, they were in pretty much continious use as a fleet tool.

As for FTL sensors and relays, we can be pretty much be certain that they were built into Manticore's and not too much later, Grayson's plantetary defense (space stations, fortresses, and so on) and possibly Eherwon's... in short Manticore's more important allies. Other systems which are dependent on an RMN for their primary defense, probably not. After all, if you pull the RMN out of Minette, why would you leave behind a sensor net that they wouldn't be able to utilize anyway?

With Minette, IIRC--and I haven't looked recently-- there was a RMN picket there that the Peeps forced out of the system as a part of Stalking Horse To draw off allied forces to open Grayson for attack. In that case, it would make sense to leave behind some FTL sensors so that when you returned to the system with enough force to deal with the Peeps, you would have immediate access to what is currently going on for tactical purposes. But again, that is fleet useage.

Don
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by Jonathan_S   » Sun May 24, 2015 12:30 am

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SWM wrote:
cthia wrote:Not a good analogy Don, at least not from the bone I picked. The FTL platforms were not exactly drawing dust overstocked in the warehouse, AFAIK.

Question, in case I got it wrong.

The FTL net in Minette seems to imply a permanent system variant. Not deployed from ships???

The receiving and transmission systems aboard stations would obviously not be deployed by ships. The systems around the perimeter of the system would necessarily be deployed by ships.

And I say again, I am pretty sure that all Manticoran Alliance member systems had FTL comm deployed as part of their defensive network.
[edited to remove accidental repetition]
Deployed by ships, yes -- how else would they be brought into the system and taken to their deployment points.

But I suspect Cthia was using "deployed from ships" as an (imprecise) shorthand for ship launched standard FTL capable recon drones. (newer versions of what Honor used at Yelson during HotQ)
I got the impression that the platforms at Minette (and every other Alliance member) were larger, longer endurance, and had greater sensitivity that those ship recon drones -- the array at Minette had the outer zone positioned a light-hour out from the star. Probably brought in and deployed by freighter as a more permanent emplacement; rather than deployed from the boat bays of the picket's warships.



(Interestingly the command Truscot gave was to scuttle Tracking Centeral and blow "all the inner-system platforms". Don't know if they'd count the ones up to a light-hour out, several times further than the hyper limit, as "inner-system".)
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by Vince   » Sun May 24, 2015 3:41 am

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Replying to many individuals to try to clarify matters and clear up any confusion and/or misunderstandings.
cthia wrote:No, Haven attacked Minette to draw forces away from Yeltsin's Star. That was the entire strategy of Operation Stalking Horse.

But my point is why use expensive, limited and classified FTL platforms in Minette when there were many other far more strategically important considerations? IIRC, at the time Grayson didn't even have the platforms seeded.

cthia, you pointed out in a later post in this thread that at time Grayson did have the platforms in the Yeltsin's Star system, when you quoted:
Flag in Exile - Ch:30 wrote:Honor tried to keep her face from reacting, but her mind raced, despite the streamers of fatigue which clogged it. Although the sensor platform's grav-pulse transmitters were FTL capable, each pulse took time to generate, which meant their data transmission rate was slow.

n7axw wrote:I don't think that the importance of the system was a criterion for determining where FTL systems were used. Where the RMN had a fleet presence for whatever reason, the FTL systems were put into place for the reasons already stated.

To say that a system is too unimortant for an FTL system would be like saying that the system is too unimportant for an RMN squadron to take along a full magazine of missiles. The FTL sensor net was a fleet tool and is usally retrieved when the RMN left the system unless it was planning to return.
cthia wrote:Not a good analogy Don, at least not from the bone I picked. The FTL platforms were not exactly drawing dust overstocked in the warehouse, AFAIK.

Question, in case I got it wrong.

The FTL net in Minette seems to imply a permanent system variant. Not deployed from ships???

If you have a capability and don't use it, you might as well not have it. The RMN (or at least Honor) seems to agree with that idea when CL Fearless needed to assist the NPA in covering (the planet) Medusa, after putting in a system-wide sensor net (that was made using other equipment to do the job) in the Basilisk system (in peacetime, On Basilisk Station):
On Basislisk Station, Chapter 10 wrote:"I see." Honor glanced at McKeon. "Exec? Suppose we reconfigure a dozen or so survey sats and tie their weather radar into the air traffic control net?"
"We could." This time it was McKeon's turn to rub his nose and frown. "We're making a mighty big dent in our equipment list, Ma'am," he warned.
"I know, but I don't see an option . . . and it's there to be used, Exec."

McKeon nodded, eyes slitted in thought, and Honor wondered if he even realized he'd said "we're" instead of "you're."
"Then I think we can do it, but their radar sets aren't going to get as good a paint off of an aircraft as standard ground radar would, and they're not set up for air traffic-quality doppler. They're intended more for radar mapping and weather observation, not real look-down capability, and air masses don't move that fast." He frowned some more. "If you'll give me a day or two with Santos and Cardones, I think between us we can come up with a fix to refine their target differentiation, and we should be able to work in a decent doppler and ranging capability, too, especially if we set them up in pairs. It'll be rough, but it should work."
"Good," Honor said. The survey satellites were standard issue and rarely used, since regular warships seldom pulled survey duty. They were also short-ranged and simple-minded, but they should suffice for this. Of course, McKeon was right about the carnage she was wreaking with her equipment list. Just her sensor network had cost the RMN somewhere in the vicinity of two hundred million dollars, even assuming most of the probe heads were recoverable, and she'd personally signed for every penny of it. But there was no other way to get the job done, and if the Admiralty objected to the cost, they should have assigned either more ships or narrower mission parameters. Besides, the survey sats would "only" up the price tag by another half-million or so apiece.

And the RMN (Admiral James Webster as First Space Lord speaking to Hamish Alexander) Admiralty agrees with Honor:
On Basilisk Station, Chapter 12 wrote:"It seems that no one told Commander Harrington that Basilisk Station is where we send our fuck-ups and deadbeats. She may only have one ship, but she's actually enforcing the commerce regs against Junction traffic. Not only that, but in the last three weeks she's deployed a few hundred million dollars worth of recon probes to cover the entire inner system, established a Navy-run space traffic control around Medusa, and taken over the customs function from the NPA. In fact, she's raised enough general hell that Admiral Warner tells me Young has actually stopped enjoying his self-assigned leave and started trying to expedite his repairs so he can get back there and stop her. I think he's afraid he's created a monster that may drag him down, too, patronage or no. Unfortunately, Warner's boys and girls on Hephaestus have Young's ship opened up like a used ration can at the moment. I'm not sure, but I have the distinct impression Warner is actually dragging his heels on the refit just to enjoy watching Young squirm, and he can't leave his ship behind without effectively admitting what he tried to pull, so there's not much he can do."
"Good God," Alexander said mildly. "Do you mean to tell me we finally have an SO on Basilisk Station who's doing her job? How remarkable!"
"Yes, she's doing her job, and damned well, as far as I can tell,
but that's what all of these—" Webster waved the memo chips "—are about. She's got detachments all over the system, and whoever she left to handle the terminus inspections seems to be a real hard case. He's ramming the regs down everybody's throat, chapter and verse, and I don't think he'd be doing that without Harrington's specific backing. Of course it's got the Havenites screaming, but he's enforcing them against our own shipping, as well. That alone would be enough to tick off every merchant house in the Kingdom after the free run they've always had there, but even that's not the worst of it. You remember the rumors about smuggling through Medusa?" Alexander nodded, and Webster grinned sourly. "Well, Harrington's orbital inspection parties have seized well over nine hundred million dollars worth of contraband—so far—and sent it in for judgment and condemnation. And in the process, she caught the Hauptman Cartel trying to smuggle kodiak maximus pelts out through Medusa and called them on it. She's seized a four-and-a-half-million-ton freighter under charter to Hauptman—the Mondragon—and sent her in under a prize crew, for God's sake!"

Even when the FTL-(communication) capable sensors were on the Official Secrets List, the RMN (or at least Honor) was willing to use them when necessary. Even when they were unhappy about having to tell the locals (who where at that point cooperating in the defense of their system, but had not yet signed an official treaty with Manticore):
The Honor of the Queen, Chapter 22 wrote:A stir went through the Graysons, and she felt Truman’s residual unhappiness beside her. What she proposed to describe to the Graysons was still on the Official Secrets List, and Truman had opposed its revelation. On the other hand, even Alice had to admit they didn’t have any choice but to use it, and that meant telling their allies about it.

cthia wrote:SWM's point is severely bereft of strategic scope. I cannot claim to actually know SWM simply from forum interaction. However, from the very small window afforded into his thinking -- from forum interaction -- I'd be very surprised if he didn't yield to my point. I'm willing to bet that SWM just forgot that detail. Accidentally missing the forest for the trees maybe? Which you cannot do in "The Pit."

I wasn't suggesting that the FTL-plats be placed in 'safe' systems that sported a low probability of seeing action, but rather in more strategically important systems that needed hanging on to. I didn't see any strategic importance of Minette, so I inquired.

Like Basilisk Station, early on it would not have received FTL plats either.
Bill Woods wrote:By this stage, why would a Manty task force not have FTL-capable sensor platforms? They've been in use so long that the Peeps know they exist and more-or-less how they work. I suppose they're expensive, but how many more ships would it take to make up for that force multiplier?

If you mean that the Minette picket should have been either stronger or weaker, maybe, but that's a different argument.

The Peeps certainly know that FTL-(communications) capable sensors exist, and more-or-lesss how they work. Citizen Vice Admiral Esther McQueen even tells (her) Citizen Commissioner Erasmus Fontein about them during her attack in Operation Stalking Horse*:
Flag In Exile, Chapter 15 wrote:"Do you expect much resistance, Citizen Admiral?" Fontein asked.
"That depends on how stupid their CO is, Citizen Commissioner." McQueen was damned if she would call this man "Sir." "He'll have the initial advantage, thanks to his sensor net. I understand Intelligence thinks it's figured out how they can use real-time tactical data on us, but until we manage to produce matching systems, we can't do the same thing to them."
Fontein frowned, but McQueen wasn't worried. What she'd said was self-evident and not quite a criticism of her own superiors, but if Fontein reported it, it might just goad some of those same superiors into finding a way to match the Manties' technology. Their new com system was technically elegant, if Intelligence was right about how they were doing it, and McQueen had her own ideas about how to deal with the Republic's own R&D types' inability to duplicate it.
The Solarian League had embargoed technology and war materials to both sides in this war, but the human race had sought an FTL means of communication for almost two thousand T-years. If the Republic could give the League a hint about how the Manties were doing it, then some greedy bastard in one of the League's member navies would be delighted to work a deal that guaranteed the PN an equal share in the hardware its raw information allowed the Leaguers to produce.
After all, she thought cynically, the embargo had been around a long time, and it wouldn't be the first time the Republic had found someone willing to violate it for the right price.

Jonathan_S wrote:Well, it only 2 years after the start of the war, and 5 since the fight against Saladin/Thunder of God around Grayson.

I could believe (but can't offhand recall text-ev for) that FTL enabled system platforms could still be in somewhat limited supply. <shrug>

But maybe you're right and Manticore has plenty of them so they've already emplaced full shells at every system they picket. I'm just saying I can see why Minette would rate higher than Cthia originally thought on a prioritized list of systems to get FTL recon platforms.

The very first evidence that there is a production problem leading to a shortage of remote FTL sensor platforms is a minimum of 4 years and 2 months after the attacks on Candor and Minnette. (Stalking Horse took place cJuly 1907 P.D., and the Battle of Adler took place October 3, 1911 P.D. Dates from Established dates throughout the Honor Harrington series.) Two books later, after the loss of Trevor's Star by the PRN to the RMN, when during the planning meeting for a sweep by Rear Admiral Tourville's forces (that eventually resulted in the Battle of Adler, followed by Prince Adrian's surrender and Honor's capture by the PRN), Citizen Captain Yuri Bogdanovich says:
In Enemy Hands, Chapter 8 wrote:"Our current areas of interest are these three systems," he went on. "Sallah, Adler, and Micah. According to our latest intelligence dumps, the Manties have taken Adler and Micah, but we still hold Sallah. Unfortunately, the data on Sallah is over two weeks old, so with your permission, Citizen Commander Lowe and I recommend beginning our sweep there, then moving south to Adler and Micah before returning to Barnett."

***Snip to Citizen Commander Shannon Foraker speaking***

"First of all," the ops officer began, "we have to bear in mind that Manty tech systems are still better than ours across the board. On the other hand, they haven't been in possession of Adler or Micah long enough to have deployed their usual sensor platform network. Even if they had been, their operational patterns around Trevor's Star indicate their Sixth Fleet is short of platforms just now. That, at least, is NavInt's interpretation of their increased use of destroyers and light cruisers as perimeter pickets, and it makes sense to me, too. If they don't have enough sensor platforms, they'd have to cover the gaps with ships. I also think it's a fairly safe bet that if they're short at someplace as critical as Trevor's Star, they're probably even shorter in the much lower priority systems in our operational area. If they do have a sensor bottleneck, it's probably temporary, but until they get it fixed, it offers us a window of opportunity."

n7axw wrote:As far as I know the FTL sensor nets are a constant from HoTQ on which would imply that from their inception, they were in pretty much continious use as a fleet tool.

As for FTL sensors and relays, we can be pretty much be certain that they were built into Manticore's and not too much later, Grayson's plantetary defense (space stations, fortresses, and so on) and possibly Eherwon's... in short Manticore's more important allies. Other systems which are dependent on an RMN for their primary defense, probably not. After all, if you pull the RMN out of Minette, why would you leave behind a sensor net that they wouldn't be able to utilize anyway?

With Minette, IIRC--and I haven't looked recently-- there was a RMN picket there that the Peeps forced out of the system as a part of Stalking Horse To draw off allied forces to open Grayson for attack. In that case, it would make sense to leave behind some FTL sensors so that when you returned to the system with enough force to deal with the Peeps, you would have immediate access to what is currently going on for tactical purposes. But again, that is fleet useage.

As pointed out by Jonathan_S, the RMN forces in Minette destroyed both the Tracking Central and the inner system sensor platforms (nothing said about the existence--or destruction--of outer system sensor platforms), as well as evacuting the grav techs in Tracking Central when the Peeps attacked the system**:
Flag In Exile, Chapter 30 wrote:"Helen," Stanton looked at his communication officer, "get me a direct link to Premier Jones." The com officer nodded, and Stanton turned back to Truscot and Commander Ryan, his ops officer. "George, you and Pete set up for a passing engagement on a direct reciprocal. There's no sense thinking we can hold 'em, but I want them hurt as we go by. Plot a course that will bring us past them at a range of five million klicks. If they decide to maneuver against us, it'll buy Jones and the evacuation ships a little more time; if they don't maneuver, I want to burn past them with the max possible velocity. They'll probably decel to increase the engagement window, but they won't be able to stretch it too far, and I want our magazines emptied into them on the way by. Rapid fire with everything we've got till the tubes run dry."

***Snip***

"Just a second, Helen," he said, still looking at Truscot. "Once you and Pete work out the rough plan, let him finish it up while you make sure Tracking Central blows all the inner-system platforms, George. Tell Central I want them to confirm their own scuttling charges before they bail out, then detach Seeress and Oracle to pick them up and get them the hell out of here while the rest of us deal with the Peeps. I do not want any of those grav techs winding up as Peep POWs, understood?"
"Aye, aye, Sir." Truscot nodded grimly. Blowing the FTL sensor platforms would cost Stanton a major tactical advantage, but he wasn't planning on standing and fighting, and the grav-pulse transmitters were one of the RMN's most closely held secrets. None of them were to be allowed to fall into Peep hands. In the case of a ship like Majestic, that would require massive internal destruction to wreck her own com section beyond reconstruction; in Tracking Central's case, it would require total destruction. Even more to the point, perhaps, among them, the techs in Tracking Central had the specs on the system filed in their brains, as well as their computers.

Notes:

* Flag In Exile seems to have some confusion as to exactly what system (Candor or Minette) McQueen was attacking as part of Operation Stalking Horse. It starts out with McQueen approaching Minette:
Flag In Exile, Chapter 15 wrote:"So the operation is on schedule, Citizen Admiral?" he asked now in his most undangerous voice, and McQueen nodded.
"It is, Citizen Commissioner. We'll hit the Minette alpha wall almost exactly on time."

***Snip to the other force in the attacks on Candor and Minette***

"Coming up on translation in forty-five minutes, S—Citizen Admiral."
Citizen Vice Admiral Diego Abbot concealed a grimace as his ops officer corrected herself. The only individuals the People's Navy was allowed to call "Sir" or "Ma'am" these days were its citizen commissioners, and while Abbot was no Legislaturalist, there was such a thing as carrying egalitarianism too damned far. Military discipline required a certain degree of autocracy, and he resented the constant reminder that he was effectively junior to someone else even on his own flag deck. Especially when the someone in question had been an environmental tech (and not, Abbot thought nastily, a particularly good one) one bare T-year before. Not that he had an intention of letting Citizen Commissioner Sigourney recognize his resentment . . . assuming the woman had the intelligence to do so.
"Thank you, Sarah." Like many PN admirals, Abbot had begun making it a habit to use his officers' first names rather than play the "citizen" game with them. He would have avoided such familiarity under the old regime, but it was far better than the comic-opera formality of "Citizen Commander This" and "Citizen Lieutenant That." Besides, it contributed to an "us against them" mentality that made them less likely to try to curry favor with StateSec by turning informer for Sigourney and her like. Or he hoped it did, anyway.
Citizen Commander Hereux nodded in response to his thanks, and he rechecked Task Force Twenty's alignment one last time in his plot. His command was marginally less powerful than Esther McQueen's, but it ought to face lighter opposition, as well, and he was confident of his ability to complete the first stage of Stalking Horse.

***Snip to the RMN commander reacting to Task Force Twenty when it came over the alpha wall at Candor***

Rear Admiral of the Green Eloise Meiner leapt from her shower, snatched a towel about herself, and lunged for the com, for the attention signal was the piercing wail of an emergency message. Water runneled off her to soak the decksole as she dashed into her sleeping cabin, but her curse of irritation died unspoken as the sudden, atonal howl of HMS Hector's GQ alarm drowned even the com's wail.
She punched the audio-only acceptance key. Its activation automatically shut down the GQ alert in her quarters, and the silence was a vast relief, but she knew it was going to be an illusory one as her chief of staff appeared on the screen. Commander Montague's expression was strained, and Meiner deliberately made her voice calm and level.
"Yes, Adam?"
"We've just detected multiple hyper footprints, Ma'am." Montague cleared his throat, and his own voice was a shade calmer when he continued. "So far we make it fifty point sources, Ma'am. Looks like maybe fourteen or fifteen ships of the wall with about the same number of battlecruisers. The rest are small fry—light cruisers and tin cans."
"Locus?" Meiner asked more sharply.
"Thirty light-minutes out, Ma'am—two-zero-point-five from the task force, bearing zero-five-niner zero-zero-eight relative from the primary. We're working their vector now. Looks like they made a nice, gentle transit, but they're heading in at four hundred gees. Assuming they make straight for the planet with turnover at about one-eight-four million klicks, they'll come to rest relative to Candor at effective range zero in five-point-three-niner hours."
"Understood." Meiner ran a hand over her soaking hair and her mind raced. Her task force consisted of only twelve battlecruisers and their screen, which the Admiralty regarded as adequate protection for a system as far behind the line as Candor. Unfortunately, the Admiralty appeared to have been wrong.

***Snip back to McQueen's force, where the book now seems to think that the other force (Task Force Twenty), NOT McQueen, is attacking Minette***

"Task Force Twenty should be hitting Minette just about now, Citizen Commissioner," Citizen Vice Admiral McQueen observed.
"Really?" Fontein let a perplexed look cross his face as he studied the chrono on the flag deck bulkhead, then nodded. It wouldn't do to seem too incompetent, and it wasn't all that hard to allow for the dilation effect of their own velocity. "And us, Citizen Admiral?"
"Another fifteen minutes," McQueen replied, and looked around the flag deck. Her staff bent intently over their consoles, completing last-minute checks,
and a frosty smile lit her green eyes. The Manties remained better than her people—she didn't like admitting that, but there was no point lying to herself—yet that was beginning to change. Their technological superiority might be insurmountable, for now at least, but they weren't five meters tall, and a lot of what had happened to the People's Navy had resulted from more mundane factors. Put simply, the Manticorans not only had better equipment, but they were better trained and much more confident, as well.
Also see ** below, where Thurston says McQueen had a missile engagement with the RMN. (And between Candor and Minette, the only missile engagement took place at Minette between PRN and RMN SDs--the RMN's heaviest units at Candor were BCs, versus the PRN SDs--and wisely avoided engagement.)

** Flag In Exile doesn't make it completely clear what Vice Admiral of the Red Ludwig Stanton, CO of Task Force Minette-01 did after his passing missile engagement with the PRN forces. Citizen Vice Admiral Alexander Thurston says what they could do:
Flag In Exile, Chapter 21 wrote:"All right," he said. "You all know Citizen Admiral McQueen and Citizen Admiral Abbot have secured control of Minette and Candor. McQueen took a heavier hit from the Manty pickets than we anticipated, but they burned off all their missiles to do it. All they can do now is stooge around the outer system and watch her, and they took losses of their own. What they've got left couldn't take her on even with full magazines.
But not what he did. (Didn't know or have time to find out.)

High Admiral Matthews and Admiral (FIE does not specify exactly what rank of Admiral, but he had only a battle squadron--8 SDs--under his command. I therefore presume he was only a Rear Admiral) Alfred Henries also say what he could be doing:
Flag In Exile, Chapter 17 wrote:"Any word on what the Peeps are doing in the systems, Sir?" Honor asked, and Matthews shook his head.
"Not really. All we've got so far are the preliminary dispatches from the station commanders. I assume Admiral Stanton and Admiral Meiner are still managing to picket the outer systems, but we can't even be certain of that. As of the last report we have, the Peeps weren't carrying out any systematic destruction of the system infrastructures, though."
"Then maybe they are planning to stay," Henries said. "If they think they can hold them, they wouldn't want to wreck anything they could use."
"I see your logic," Matthews said, "but it only emphasizes that we don't know what they're after. And whatever it is, it seems to me that the immediate problem is to get enough strength into the vicinity to sit on them."
"According to Admiral Stanton's dispatch, he took his lumps, but he hurt them pretty badly in his single pass, Sir," Mercedes Brigham put in. She looked at Honor and tapped the terminal in front of her. "He lost four heavy cruisers and took heavy damage to Majestic and Orion, but he nailed one of their SDs, hit a second one hard, and took out a battlecruiser for good measure. They know they've been nudged, Milady."
"True, but he expended virtually his full missile load to do it," Henries pointed out. "He can picket the outer system, but until we get some missile resupply to him, he can't do anything more, and he's got cripples to worry about. Admiral Meiner's got full magazines and no crips, but battlecruisers can't go toe-to-toe with SDs."
But not what he did. (Didn't have enough information in the initial dispatch to know his intentions, or time enough to find out what he was able to do after his initial engagement.)

Italics in the quoted text from books are the author's, bold and underlined text is my emphasis.
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History does not repeat itself so much as it echoes.
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by cthia   » Sun May 24, 2015 4:00 am

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 14951
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

Excellent post Vince. And it did indeed clear up a few of my misconceptions. I'll go ahead with the prepared post I have anyways, as it is important for other reasons.

Thanks for this post and the obvious effort!

Oh, I cannot take credit for saying that Grayson had the FTL net, that was Johnathan_S.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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