Honorverse ramblings and musings

cthia wrote:

SWM wrote:My impression is that Minette did not have any significant strategic value. It was important only because it was a member of the Manticoran Alliance. Manticore had to protect the members of the Alliance or it would lose those members' support. Haven attacked Minette to put pressure on the Manticoran Alliance. Pressure might cause members to leave the Alliance. Attacks on the members would certainly cause the members to demand more protection from the RMN, which would weaken their offensive forces. And Manticore would be obligated to free any Manticoran Alliance member system which was captured, as soon as possible. If they didn't, the other members would wonder about Manticore's commitment to protecting them.

The FTL platforms almost certainly have self-destruct systems. That's what they mean by scuttling. The FTL Comm secret was not in danger in Minette, because they could destroy it at any time, and did so. As a full member of the Manticoran Alliance, Minette certainly deserved the FTL Comm platforms.

No, Haven attacked Minette to draw forces away from Yeltsin's Star. That was the entire strategy of Operation Stalking Horse.

But my point is why use expensive, limited and classified FTL platforms in Minette when there were many other far more strategically important considerations? IIRC, at the time Grayson didn't even have the platforms seeded.

First, Grayson did have the platforms. Quote about the Peep assault arriving

Flag in Exile - Ch:30 wrote:Honor tried to keep her face from reacting, but her mind raced, despite the streamers of fatigue which clogged it. Although the sensor platform's grav-pulse transmitters were FTL capable, each pulse took time to generate, which meant their data transmission rate was slow

Second I don't see how identifying the point that the Peeps wanted to apply pressure to (Grayson) mitigates SWM's point that attacking Minette was to put pressure on the Alliance. Yes, the Peeps hoped that pressure would trigger a specific response; but if Minette wasn't an Alliance member attacking there wouldn't have had the likelyhood of triggering the short term reaction the Peeps were hoping for.


Finally, looping back around to the FTL platforms, Minette was much closer to the front while Grayson was seen as a more secure rear area. Plus Grayson wasn't yet the super powerful contributor to the Alliance which it later became. (Even with the captured Peep wallers it was probably behind both Erewhon and Talbott in terms of current fleet strength). So it wouldn't have been surprising if systems where combat was seen as more likely got higher priority on the FTL platforms that would give the Manticoran defenders an edge. (But like I said, Grayson did have those sensor platforms deployed)

Yes there's a risk that by putting them where combat is likely, or where you might have to yield the system, that the self-destructs fail and the Peeps capture the hardware. But you have to balance that against the tactical advantage having the FTL platforms give you - they don't do much good if they're in safe systems where combat never happens.

cthia wrote:

SWM wrote:My impression is that Minette did not have any significant strategic value. It was important only because it was a member of the Manticoran Alliance. Manticore had to protect the members of the Alliance or it would lose those members' support. Haven attacked Minette to put pressure on the Manticoran Alliance. Pressure might cause members to leave the Alliance. Attacks on the members would certainly cause the members to demand more protection from the RMN, which would weaken their offensive forces. And Manticore would be obligated to free any Manticoran Alliance member system which was captured, as soon as possible. If they didn't, the other members would wonder about Manticore's commitment to protecting them.

The FTL platforms almost certainly have self-destruct systems. That's what they mean by scuttling. The FTL Comm secret was not in danger in Minette, because they could destroy it at any time, and did so. As a full member of the Manticoran Alliance, Minette certainly deserved the FTL Comm platforms.

No, Haven attacked Minette to draw forces away from Yeltsin's Star. That was the entire strategy of Operation Stalking Horse.

But my point is why use expensive, limited and classified FTL platforms in Minette when there were many other far more strategically important considerations? IIRC, at the time Grayson didn't even have the platforms seeded.

First, Grayson did have the platforms. Quote about the Peep assault arriving

Flag in Exile - Ch:30 wrote:Honor tried to keep her face from reacting, but her mind raced, despite the streamers of fatigue which clogged it. Although the sensor platform's grav-pulse transmitters were FTL capable, each pulse took time to generate, which meant their data transmission rate was slow

Johnathan_S wrote:Second I don't see how identifying the point that the Peeps wanted to apply pressure to (Grayson) mitigates SWM's point that attacking Minette was to put pressure on the Alliance. Yes, the Peeps hoped that pressure would trigger a specific response; but if Minette wasn't an Alliance member attacking there wouldn't have had the likelyhood of triggering the short term reaction the Peeps were hoping for.


Finally, looping back around to the FTL platforms, Minette was much closer to the front while Grayson was seen as a more secure rear area. Plus Grayson wasn't yet the super powerful contributor to the Alliance which it later became. (Even with the captured Peep wallers it was probably behind both Erewhon and Talbott in terms of current fleet strength). So it wouldn't have been surprising if systems where combat was seen as more likely got higher priority on the FTL platforms that would give the Manticoran defenders an edge. (But like I said, Grayson did have those sensor platforms deployed)

Yes there's a risk that by putting them where combat is likely, or where you might have to yield the system, that the self-destructs fail and the Peeps capture the hardware. But you have to balance that against the tactical advantage having the FTL platforms give you - they don't do much good if they're in safe systems where combat never happens.

SWM's point is severely bereft of strategic scope. I cannot claim to actually know SWM simply from forum interaction. However, from the very small window afforded into his thinking -- from forum interaction -- I'd be very surprised if he didn't yield to my point. I'm willing to bet that SWM just forgot that detail. Accidentally missing the forest for the trees maybe? Which you cannot do in "The Pit."

I wasn't suggesting that the FTL-plats be placed in 'safe' systems that sported a low probability of seeing action, but rather in more strategically important systems that needed hanging on to. I didn't see any strategic importance of Minette, so I inquired.

Like Basilisk Station, early on it would not have received FTL plats either.

cthia wrote:SWM's point is severely bereft of strategic scope. I cannot claim to actually know SWM simply from forum interaction. However, from the very small window afforded into his thinking -- from forum interaction -- I'd be very surprised if he didn't yield to my point. I'm willing to bet that SWM just forgot that detail. Accidentally missing the forest for the trees maybe? Which you cannot do in "The Pit."

I wasn't suggesting that the FTL-plats be placed in 'safe' systems that sported a low probability of seeing action, but rather in more strategically important systems that needed hanging on to. I didn't see any strategic importance of Minette, so I inquired.

Like Basilisk Station, early on it would not have received FTL plats either.

The strategic importance of Minette is political / diplomatic; though given the system by system advance all navies used at the time a near front-line system isn't exactly strategically unimportant.

But mostly Minette, like all home systems of signatories of the Alliance, has to be treated as strategically important to keep the Alliance together. I'd tend to agree that the system's location wasn't very strategically useful - at least no more so than a number of other nearby systems. So if Minette was unoccupied; just one more system that Manticore was simply picketing to provide defensive depth then I'd agree it might not make sense to invest much in its defense - and until FTL recon platforms were ubiquitous they could probably be better used elsewhere.

But assigning a signatory's home system that low level of protection would cause real political and diplomatic issues within the alliance. And while Minette may not be a significant contributor to the alliance, Manticore at that time can't do without all the other signatories - and showing that you won't give serious protection to home systems is a great way to lose everybody (especially Erewhon who was a significant military contributor at that point, and who could potentially flip-flop back to hoping the League would deter Haven from ambitions in that direction -- if for example they no longer trusted Manticore to defend them.)

cthia wrote: SWM's point is severely bereft of strategic scope. I cannot claim to actually know SWM simply from forum interaction. However, from the very small window afforded into his thinking -- from forum interaction -- I'd be very surprised if he didn't yield to my point. I'm willing to bet that SWM just forgot that detail. Accidentally missing the forest for the trees maybe? Which you cannot do in "The Pit."

I wasn't suggesting that the FTL-plats be placed in 'safe' systems that sported a low probability of seeing action, but rather in more strategically important systems that needed hanging on to. I didn't see any strategic importance of Minette, so I inquired.

Like Basilisk Station, early on it would not have received FTL plats either.

By this stage, why would a Manty task force not have FTL-capable sensor platforms? They've been in use so long that the Peeps know they exist and more-or-less how they work. I suppose they're expensive, but how many more ships would it take to make up for that force multiplier?

If you mean that the Minette picket should have been either stronger or weaker, maybe, but that's a different argument.

Bill Woods wrote:

cthia wrote: SWM's point is severely bereft of strategic scope. I cannot claim to actually know SWM simply from forum interaction. However, from the very small window afforded into his thinking -- from forum interaction -- I'd be very surprised if he didn't yield to my point. I'm willing to bet that SWM just forgot that detail. Accidentally missing the forest for the trees maybe? Which you cannot do in "The Pit."

I wasn't suggesting that the FTL-plats be placed in 'safe' systems that sported a low probability of seeing action, but rather in more strategically important systems that needed hanging on to. I didn't see any strategic importance of Minette, so I inquired.

Like Basilisk Station, early on it would not have received FTL plats either.

By this stage, why would a Manty task force not have FTL-capable sensor platforms? They've been in use so long that the Peeps know they exist and more-or-less how they work. I suppose they're expensive, but how many more ships would it take to make up for that force multiplier?

If you mean that the Minette picket should have been either stronger or weaker, maybe, but that's a different argument.

Well, it only 2 years after the start of the war, and 5 since the fight against Saladin/Thunder of God around Grayson.

I could believe (but can't offhand recall text-ev for) that FTL enabled system platforms could still be in somewhat limited supply. <shrug>

But maybe you're right and Manticore has plenty of them so they've already emplaced full shells at every system they picket. I'm just saying I can see why Minette would rate higher than Cthia originally thought on a prioritized list of systems to get FTL recon platforms.

Bill Woods wrote:

cthia wrote:
SWM's point is severely bereft of strategic scope. I cannot claim to actually know SWM simply from forum interaction. However, from the very small window afforded into his thinking -- from forum interaction -- I'd be very surprised if he didn't yield to my point. I'm willing to bet that SWM just forgot that detail. Accidentally missing the forest for the trees maybe? Which you cannot do in "The Pit."

I wasn't suggesting that the FTL-plats be placed in 'safe' systems that sported a low probability of seeing action, but rather in more strategically important systems that needed hanging on to. I didn't see any strategic importance of Minette, so I inquired.

Like Basilisk Station, early on it would not have received FTL plats either.

By this stage, why would a Manty task force not have FTL-capable sensor platforms? They've been in use so long that the Peeps know they exist and more-or-less how they work. I suppose they're expensive, but how many more ships would it take to make up for that force multiplier?

If you mean that the Minette picket should have been either stronger or weaker, maybe, but that's a different argument.

Johnathan_S wrote:Well, it only 2 years after the start of the war, and 5 since the fight against Saladin/Thunder of God around Grayson.

I could believe (but can't offhand recall text-ev for) that FTL enabled system platforms could still be in somewhat limited supply. <shrug>

But maybe you're right and Manticore has plenty of them so they've already emplaced full shells at every system they picket. I'm just saying I can see why Minette would rate higher than Cthia originally thought on a prioritized list of systems to get FTL recon platforms.

****** *


Which refers back to my original post as to why Minette was allowed to be drawn down so threadbare if it was important enough to invest so much 'credit worthy' hardware. FTL plats weren't exactly a dime a dozen and so numerous that every system enjoyed an inventory of them. The way storyline read to me, they were in limited supply as exemplified in text...

Faster-than-light communication by anything but courier was something humanity kept looking for for a thousand years, but remained impossible until Manticore's breakthrough at the beginning of the 20th Century PD. (HH14) By using a specialized gravity generator to create rapid pulses that could be detected by gravity sensors (which can detect gravity waves in real time), the Royal Manticoran Navy was able to communicate in realtime across the full range of their gravity sensors (to all practical purposes, anything short of interstellar range).[1] (HH9, HH10)

This capability was used not only in ships but also in recon drones and twenty years later was compact enough that it was theoretically possible to fit it into an MDM at the expense of one of the impeller drives (although the RMN took a different route developing Apollo).

The spread of this technology was extremely slow. The defection of Erewhon from the Manticoran Alliance gave the Republic of Haven their first look at functional units almost two decades after their initial deployment. The Solarian League had no known samples and although they were familiar with the theory by 1921 PD, did not appear to have solved the engineering problems as of the Second Battle of Manticore.

It wasn't exactly the equivalent of leaving treasure chests of gold-pressed-latinum unguarded and floating around system, but it was its equivalent weight in Manticoran credits and Manty R&D.

It just seemed odd to me that such a random system was charged with having dedicated FTL platforms emplaced throughout the system forming an FTL net, if such a threadbare force was going to be keeping station. Surely such a limited number of platforms could be utilized elsewhere.

I may be wrong, but I wasn't ever aware of a time that the platforms were in abundant supply.

cthia wrote:

Bill Woods wrote:By this stage, why would a Manty task force not have FTL-capable sensor platforms? They've been in use so long that the Peeps know they exist and more-or-less how they work. I suppose they're expensive, but how many more ships would it take to make up for that force multiplier?

If you mean that the Minette picket should have been either stronger or weaker, maybe, but that's a different argument.

Johnathan_S wrote:Well, it only 2 years after the start of the war, and 5 since the fight against Saladin/Thunder of God around Grayson.

I could believe (but can't offhand recall text-ev for) that FTL enabled system platforms could still be in somewhat limited supply. <shrug>

But maybe you're right and Manticore has plenty of them so they've already emplaced full shells at every system they picket. I'm just saying I can see why Minette would rate higher than Cthia originally thought on a prioritized list of systems to get FTL recon platforms.

****** *


Which refers back to my original post as to why Minette was allowed to be drawn down so threadbare if it was important enough to invest so much 'credit worthy' hardware. FTL plats weren't exactly a dime a dozen and so numerous that every system enjoyed an inventory of them. The way storyline read to me, they were in limited supply as exemplified in text...

Faster-than-light communication by anything but courier was something humanity kept looking for for a thousand years, but remained impossible until Manticore's breakthrough at the beginning of the 20th Century PD. (HH14) By using a specialized gravity generator to create rapid pulses that could be detected by gravity sensors (which can detect gravity waves in real time), the Royal Manticoran Navy was able to communicate in realtime across the full range of their gravity sensors (to all practical purposes, anything short of interstellar range).[1] (HH9, HH10)

This capability was used not only in ships but also in recon drones and twenty years later was compact enough that it was theoretically possible to fit it into an MDM at the expense of one of the impeller drives (although the RMN took a different route developing Apollo).

The spread of this technology was extremely slow. The defection of Erewhon from the Manticoran Alliance gave the Republic of Haven their first look at functional units almost two decades after their initial deployment. The Solarian League had no known samples and although they were familiar with the theory by 1921 PD, did not appear to have solved the engineering problems as of the Second Battle of Manticore.

It wasn't exactly the equivalent of leaving treasure chests of gold-pressed-latinum unguarded and floating around system, but it was its equivalent weight in Manticoran credits and Manty R&D.

It just seemed odd to me that such a random system was charged with having dedicated FTL platforms emplaced throughout the system forming an FTL net, if such a threadbare force was going to be keeping station. Surely such a limited number of platforms could be utilized elsewhere.

I may be wrong, but I wasn't ever aware of a time that the platforms were in abundant supply.

The bit you highlighted refers to how quickly the tech leaked from the Alliance to outside parties; not how quickly the Alliance was able to build and deploy it internally.

One reason to employ it at a place like Minette was to give reassurance of their importance without tying up a much larger force (which could be used to take the fight to the Peeps). The FTL system platforms act as a force multiplier in a couple ways
1) By "watching the back door". You don't have to split your forces and hold some near the planet as insurance against a stealthy incursion because the FTL platforms give you enough high speed sensor reach that you can reposition if necessary.
2) By providing real-time tracking of the enemy in the interval between the surge of system emergence and when your onboard sensors can pick up ships manouvering under stealthed wedges. That lets you maneuver for sneaky ambushes; getting on the perfect intercept course then shutting down your drives 'just' before they can spot you.

That's more or less how Honor used the less capable FTL recon drones n during HotQ. She could take all her ships out to engage Saladin at range because the FTL drones would let her track it at long range, and also watch for anyone attempting to sneak past her to attack Grayson.


Obviously we're not the Manitcoran Admiralty, so we don't have all the information they had to make the force and resource determinations. But I don't personally see anything inherently incompatible with a system being important enough to justify FTL recon platform coverage, while not simultaneously being important enough to permanently keep forces strong enough to repel heavy Peep assaults.

cthia wrote:

Bill Woods wrote:By this stage, why would a Manty task force not have FTL-capable sensor platforms? They've been in use so long that the Peeps know they exist and more-or-less how they work. I suppose they're expensive, but how many more ships would it take to make up for that force multiplier?

If you mean that the Minette picket should have been either stronger or weaker, maybe, but that's a different argument.

Johnathan_S wrote:Well, it only 2 years after the start of the war, and 5 since the fight against Saladin/Thunder of God around Grayson.

I could believe (but can't offhand recall text-ev for) that FTL enabled system platforms could still be in somewhat limited supply. <shrug>

But maybe you're right and Manticore has plenty of them so they've already emplaced full shells at every system they picket. I'm just saying I can see why Minette would rate higher than Cthia originally thought on a prioritized list of systems to get FTL recon platforms.

****** *


Which refers back to my original post as to why Minette was allowed to be drawn down so threadbare if it was important enough to invest so much 'credit worthy' hardware. FTL plats weren't exactly a dime a dozen and so numerous that every system enjoyed an inventory of them. The way storyline read to me, they were in limited supply as exemplified in text...

Faster-than-light communication by anything but courier was something humanity kept looking for for a thousand years, but remained impossible until Manticore's breakthrough at the beginning of the 20th Century PD. (HH14) By using a specialized gravity generator to create rapid pulses that could be detected by gravity sensors (which can detect gravity waves in real time), the Royal Manticoran Navy was able to communicate in realtime across the full range of their gravity sensors (to all practical purposes, anything short of interstellar range).[1] (HH9, HH10)

This capability was used not only in ships but also in recon drones and twenty years later was compact enough that it was theoretically possible to fit it into an MDM at the expense of one of the impeller drives (although the RMN took a different route developing Apollo).

The spread of this technology was extremely slow. The defection of Erewhon from the Manticoran Alliance gave the Republic of Haven their first look at functional units almost two decades after their initial deployment. The Solarian League had no known samples and although they were familiar with the theory by 1921 PD, did not appear to have solved the engineering problems as of the Second Battle of Manticore.

It wasn't exactly the equivalent of leaving treasure chests of gold-pressed-latinum unguarded and floating around system, but it was its equivalent weight in Manticoran credits and Manty R&D.

It just seemed odd to me that such a random system was charged with having dedicated FTL platforms emplaced throughout the system forming an FTL net, if such a threadbare force was going to be keeping station. Surely such a limited number of platforms could be utilized elsewhere.

I may be wrong, but I wasn't ever aware of a time that the platforms were in abundant supply.

Johnathan_S wrote:The bit you highlighted refers to how quickly the tech leaked from the Alliance to outside parties; not how quickly the Alliance was able to build and deploy it internally.

One reason to employ it at a place like Minette was to give reassurance of their importance without tying up a much larger force (which could be used to take the fight to the Peeps). The FTL system platforms act as a force multiplier in a couple ways
1) By "watching the back door". You don't have to split your forces and hold some near the planet as insurance against a stealthy incursion because the FTL platforms give you enough high speed sensor reach that you can reposition if necessary.
2) By providing real-time tracking of the enemy in the interval between the surge of system emergence and when your onboard sensors can pick up ships manouvering under stealthed wedges. That lets you maneuver for sneaky ambushes; getting on the perfect intercept course then shutting down your drives 'just' before they can spot you.

That's more or less how Honor used the less capable FTL recon drones n during HotQ. She could take all her ships out to engage Saladin at range because the FTL drones would let her track it at long range, and also watch for anyone attempting to sneak past her to attack Grayson.


Obviously we're not the Manitcoran Admiralty, so we don't have all the information they had to make the force and resource determinations. But I don't personally see anything inherently incompatible with a system being important enough to justify FTL recon platform coverage, while not simultaneously being important enough to permanently keep forces strong enough to repel heavy Peep assaults.

You make very compelling points Johnathan, especially about what the Admiralty may have been privy and we aren't. Along those lines, I should fairly add, that no matter how important and expensive the FTL plats were in Minette, the strategic importance of Trevor's Star was an overriding factor for certain. And, the RMN didn't initially post a threadbare force there.

It would be interesting to know what force level pre-drawdown was stationed there at Minette.

I think my cause to pause and muse comes from the fact that the FTL net there at Minette, IIAC, is a system variant seed of platforms, and not what could be seeded from the ships there. I don't recall too many systems with that FTL system variant net. Or am I misinterpreting something?

cthia wrote:SWM's point is severely bereft of strategic scope. I cannot claim to actually know SWM simply from forum interaction. However, from the very small window afforded into his thinking -- from forum interaction -- I'd be very surprised if he didn't yield to my point. I'm willing to bet that SWM just forgot that detail. Accidentally missing the forest for the trees maybe? Which you cannot do in "The Pit."

I wasn't suggesting that the FTL-plats be placed in 'safe' systems that sported a low probability of seeing action, but rather in more strategically important systems that needed hanging on to. I didn't see any strategic importance of Minette, so I inquired.

Like Basilisk Station, early on it would not have received FTL plats either.

Actually, I'm fairly sure that EVERY Manticoran Alliance member had FTL comms installed, including Grayson. I would think that the Alliance members would insist on it. The members recognize that they cannot be given picket forces sufficient to stop any possible Havenite attack, but Manticore could certainly afford to give them FTL comms so they could recognize who was coming in fast enough to do something about it.

I do not exactly yield to your point--I think you are saying practically the same thing that I did. I stated that Haven was trying to put pressure on Manticore. By that, I meant forcing it to reassign ships in response to the threat, in response to demands from the Manticoran Alliance members. So I think you are just restating what I said.

SWM wrote:

cthia wrote:SWM's point is severely bereft of strategic scope. I cannot claim to actually know SWM simply from forum interaction. However, from the very small window afforded into his thinking -- from forum interaction -- I'd be very surprised if he didn't yield to my point. I'm willing to bet that SWM just forgot that detail. Accidentally missing the forest for the trees maybe? Which you cannot do in "The Pit."

I wasn't suggesting that the FTL-plats be placed in 'safe' systems that sported a low probability of seeing action, but rather in more strategically important systems that needed hanging on to. I didn't see any strategic importance of Minette, so I inquired.

Like Basilisk Station, early on it would not have received FTL plats either.

Actually, I'm fairly sure that EVERY Manticoran Alliance member had FTL comms installed, including Grayson. I would think that the Alliance members would insist on it. The members recognize that they cannot be given picket forces sufficient to stop any possible Havenite attack, but Manticore could certainly afford to give them FTL comms so they could recognize who was coming in fast enough to do something about it.

I do not exactly yield to your point--I think you are saying practically the same thing that I did. I stated that Haven was trying to put pressure on Manticore. By that, I meant forcing it to reassign ships in response to the threat, in response to demands from the Manticoran Alliance members. So I think you are just restating what I said.

As originally promised, I am surprised that you do not yield.

I cannot agree with you here. If I did, then we'd both be wrong. We are not saying the same things.

Haven was not trying to pressure Manticore to simply reassign ships. Operation Stalking Horse was after a specific strategic objective - Grayson. Haven did not simply want Manticore to reassign ships. Haven wanted Manticore to possibly weaken Grayson. If Manticore would have simply reassigned ships in any manner short of leaving Grayson ill prepared would have signaled a failure of the objectives of Operation Stalking Horse.

The idea for Stalking Horse was conceived by Admiral Alexander Thurston. He and his staff designed a plan to capture the Candor and the Minette System, but more importantly, to draw attention away from Yeltsin's Star and Endicott, where Operation Dagger was to strike. (HH5)