Honorverse ramblings and musings

cthia wrote:I always wanted more POV of McQueen. In her early years, as part of Operation Stalking Horse her Task Force 30 hit the understrength Minette system.

Task Force Minette-01 was a task force of the Royal Manticoran Navy in charge of picketing and defending the Minette System.
It was commanded by Vice Admiral of the Red Ludwig Stanton.

⦁ HMS Majestic, Captain George Truscot commanding, task force flagship
⦁ HMS Orion
⦁ a cruiser element, including:
⦁ HMS Seeress
⦁ HMS Oracle
⦁ a destroyer element

Seeing the overwhelming forces arrayed against him, Admiral Stanton decided to withdraw rather than sacrifice his command. He ordered the evacuation of all technical personnel, and the scuttling of Tracking Central as well as all inner-system platforms, so that the FTL sensor net technology would not fall into Havenite hands. He then planned to pass the PN on the way out, firing as many missiles as he could at their superdreadnoughts in order to ease the ability of a counterattack to take the system. Before moving out he contacted the Premier of Everest to inform him of his intentions.
During the withdrawal, Stanton's forces managed to destroy one superdreadnought, heavily damage another, and destroyed a battlecruiser, in return for heavy damage to two dreadnoughts (HMS Majestic and Orion) as well as losing four heavy cruisers. (HH5)

I remember this sticking in my craw. I hated it each time the RMN had to destroy its own resources. (I don't recall the RHN ever doing that. Did I miss any such event?) At any rate, what I cannot figure out is why this system was left so threadbare, so understrength. Well, I know the strategic reasons why. Hamish needed help by way of reinforcements for his Trevor's Star campaign. And McQueen wasn't even his opposition then. She was there, raising hell in Minette. What I ultimately don't understand is what was the importance of Minette? Obviously it was important because, in retreating and giving up the system, Admiral Stanton was looking ahead to strategically make reaquiring Minette easier with his en passant tactic. (This is a perfect example of the passed pawn idea on the chess board projected onto a real battle field, which was not lost on me.)

What really disturbs me is why FTL technology was employed throughout this system? I suppose as much advance warning as one can get would make for a more complete and safer evacuation, but all of the new technology is at risk - all of the FTL platforms seeded throughout the system. Why seed FTL platforms in an inadequately defended system? Beyond the fact that they're expensive systems, the RMN could not afford for the technology to fall into enemy hands.

Whatever happened to Vice Admiral Stanton?

cthia wrote:

SWM wrote:Yes, we do know what fruit the MAlign's research bore in their study of treecats. Absolutely nothing. The text tells us that they didn't learn anything useful. The treecat committed suicide. And if I recall correctly, in such a way that convinced them that it would not be useful to steal another treecat.

I'm very interested in that text. I know it exists. I just haven't seen it for myself. I'd like to know if it specifically states that they didn't learn anything useful or that they didn't learn anything useful regarding adapting and artificially mimicking it via genetic research.

I'm just trying to prepare myself for any potential curves pitched by the MAlign, you see.

At All Costs wrote:"Yes, we can't afford to overlook the little bastards any longer, can we?" Detweiler growled.

It was unusual, to say the least, for him to allow his ire to show that clearly, but Sphinx's treecats had been a sore point with Manpower and Mesa literally for centuries. The possibility of unlocking the secret of telepathy had been impossible for the bioengineers of Mesa to resist, but they'd been remarkably unsuccessful in obtaining specimens. In fact, they'd managed to obtain only one living treecat in over three hundred T-years, and they'd discovered quickly that a treecat in captivity simply died. They still had some of the creature's genetic material, and some work continued with it in a desultory fashion, but without much prospect of successfully building the ability into humans.

The fact that the wretched little animals were even more intelligent than Manpower's own worst-case assumptions had come as an unpleasant revelation. And the ability of a fully functional telempathic to communicate its observations about the mental state of someone on the other side of high-level diplomatic negotiations was something political analysts were going to take some getting used to.

SWM wrote:
Since physics states that all energy transmissions can be considered both waves and particles, we can state with certainty that telepathy has a frequency range. But until the Honorverse can actually detect those transmissions, it would be impossible to try to jam it.

n7axw wrote:

SWM wrote:
Since physics states that all energy transmissions can be considered both waves and particles, we can state with certainty that telepathy has a frequency range. But until the Honorverse can actually detect those transmissions, it would be impossible to try to jam it.

Your last paragraph here is interesting. Perhaps you mean that the "curently accepted" framework for physics states...

Were it to turn out that telepathy could be demonstrated to be true, one of the consequences might be that physics needs a new and more inclusive framework.

What we can say is that it hasn't happened yet.

Don

SWM wrote:"cthia"]"SWM"]
Yes, we do know what fruit the MAlign's research bore in their study of treecats. Absolutely nothing. The text tells us that they didn't learn anything useful. The treecat committed suicide. And if I recall correctly, in such a way that convinced them that it would not be useful to steal another treecat.

At All Costs wrote:"Yes, we can't afford to overlook the little bastards any longer, can we?" Detweiler growled.

It was unusual, to say the least, for him to allow his ire to show that clearly, but Sphinx's treecats had been a sore point with Manpower and Mesa literally for centuries. The possibility of unlocking the secret of telepathy had been impossible for the bioengineers of Mesa to resist, but they'd been remarkably unsuccessful in obtaining specimens. In fact, they'd managed to obtain only one living treecat in over three hundred T-years, and they'd discovered quickly that a treecat in captivity simply died. They still had some of the creature's genetic material, and some work continued with it in a desultory fashion, but without much prospect of successfully building the ability into humans.

The fact that the wretched little animals were even more intelligent than Manpower's own worst-case assumptions had come as an unpleasant revelation. And the ability of a fully functional telempathic to communicate its observations about the mental state of someone on the other side of high-level diplomatic negotiations was something political analysts were going to take some getting used to.

cthia wrote:You're preaching to the choir. I was the biggest skeptic. But it does seem to be widely accepted, just not widely proven. And, since I'm part Native American, I have no doubt in the ability of 'animal whisperers.' But that's another story.

There was a site though, featuring intense research that seemed to be incontrovertible. That was their claim at least. I'll try and find it.

At any rate, I wouldn't be surprised if the MAlign has a few surprises in store.

SWM wrote:

cthia wrote:You're preaching to the choir. I was the biggest skeptic. But it does seem to be widely accepted, just not widely proven. And, since I'm part Native American, I have no doubt in the ability of 'animal whisperers.' But that's another story.

There was a site though, featuring intense research that seemed to be incontrovertible. That was their claim at least. I'll try and find it.

At any rate, I wouldn't be surprised if the MAlign has a few surprises in store.

My apologies, I was not clear. When I said it was not widely accepted, I meant telepathy (animal or human) is not widely accepted in the scientific community. If you are talking about widely accepted in popular media, then you would also have to include UFOs, Bigfoot, the World Wrestling Association, miracle diets, and the hope of winning the lottery. It's almost all fuzzy pictures, slick promotions, and media hype.

[edit] Note I said almost all. That's why I don't absolutely rule out the reality of telepathy, UFOs, Bigfoot, the World Wrestling Association, miracle diets, or the hope of winning the lottery. And I really would be interested in any reproducible research you can point toward.

n7axw wrote:

SWM wrote:Since physics states that all energy transmissions can be considered both waves and particles, we can state with certainty that telepathy has a frequency range. But until the Honorverse can actually detect those transmissions, it would be impossible to try to jam it.

Your last paragraph here is interesting. Perhaps you mean that the "curently accepted" framework for physics states...

Were it to turn out that telepathy could be demonstrated to be true, one of the consequences might be that physics needs a new and more inclusive framework.

What we can say is that it hasn't happened yet.

Don

SWM wrote:True, I should have stated "current physics". However, historically, physics has been augmented over time, not completely changed. The wave/particle duality of energy transmission can be easily demonstrated. It is possible to measure or calculate the frequency of energy transmissions. It is not false. It may be incomplete, but I am confident that future physics will not say it is simply not true. So I stand by my statement. If there is such a thing as telepathy, there is a frequency that will be measurable.

Just as Newtonian physics is a perfectly adequate model for most circumstances, so modern physics will continue to be a perfectly adequate model for most circumstances into the future. And one of the consequences is that there will be a frequency associated with any energy transmission, including telepathy if it exists.

cthia wrote:

SWM wrote:Yes, we do know what fruit the MAlign's research bore in their study of treecats. Absolutely nothing. The text tells us that they didn't learn anything useful. The treecat committed suicide. And if I recall correctly, in such a way that convinced them that it would not be useful to steal another treecat.

I'm very interested in that text. I know it exists. I just haven't seen it for myself. I'd like to know if it specifically states that they didn't learn anything useful or that they didn't learn anything useful regarding adapting and artificially mimicking it via genetic research.

I'm just trying to prepare myself for any potential curves pitched by the MAlign, you see.

At All Costs wrote:"Yes, we can't afford to overlook the little bastards any longer, can we?" Detweiler growled.

It was unusual, to say the least, for him to allow his ire to show that clearly, but Sphinx's treecats had been a sore point with Manpower and Mesa literally for centuries. The possibility of unlocking the secret of telepathy had been impossible for the bioengineers of Mesa to resist, but they'd been remarkably unsuccessful in obtaining specimens. In fact, they'd managed to obtain only one living treecat in over three hundred T-years, and they'd discovered quickly that a treecat in captivity simply died. They still had some of the creature's genetic material, and some work continued with it in a desultory fashion, but without much prospect of successfully building the ability into humans.

The fact that the wretched little animals were even more intelligent than Manpower's own worst-case assumptions had come as an unpleasant revelation. And the ability of a fully functional telempathic to communicate its observations about the mental state of someone on the other side of high-level diplomatic negotiations was something political analysts were going to take some getting used to.

SWM wrote:Don't worry. The Alignment is not going to suddenly produce telepathic clone warriors or anything like that. They didn't even figure out how intelligent treecats were until the treecats revealed it to the galaxy. They have made no progress on studying telepathy.

cthia wrote:I always wanted more POV of McQueen. In her early years, as part of Operation Stalking Horse her Task Force 30 hit the understrength Minette system.

Task Force Minette-01 was a task force of the Royal Manticoran Navy in charge of picketing and defending the Minette System.
It was commanded by Vice Admiral of the Red Ludwig Stanton.

⦁ HMS Majestic, Captain George Truscot commanding, task force flagship
⦁ HMS Orion
⦁ a cruiser element, including:
⦁ HMS Seeress
⦁ HMS Oracle
⦁ a destroyer element

Seeing the overwhelming forces arrayed against him, Admiral Stanton decided to withdraw rather than sacrifice his command. He ordered the evacuation of all technical personnel, and the scuttling of Tracking Central as well as all inner-system platforms, so that the FTL sensor net technology would not fall into Havenite hands. He then planned to pass the PN on the way out, firing as many missiles as he could at their superdreadnoughts in order to ease the ability of a counterattack to take the system. Before moving out he contacted the Premier of Everest to inform him of his intentions.
During the withdrawal, Stanton's forces managed to destroy one superdreadnought, heavily damage another, and destroyed a battlecruiser, in return for heavy damage to two dreadnoughts (HMS Majestic and Orion) as well as losing four heavy cruisers. (HH5)

I remember this sticking in my craw. I hated it each time the RMN had to destroy its own resources. (I don't recall the RHN ever doing that. Did I miss any such event?) At any rate, what I cannot figure out is why this system was left so threadbare, so understrength. Well, I know the strategic reasons why. Hamish needed help by way of reinforcements for his Trevor's Star campaign. And McQueen wasn't even his opposition then. She was there, raising hell in Minette. What I ultimately don't understand is what was the importance of Minette? Obviously it was important because, in retreating and giving up the system, Admiral Stanton was looking ahead to strategically make reaquiring Minette easier with his en passant tactic. (This is a perfect example of the passed pawn idea on the chess board projected onto a real battle field, which was not lost on me.)

What really disturbs me is why FTL technology was employed throughout this system? I suppose as much advance warning as one can get would make for a more complete and safer evacuation, but all of the new technology is at risk - all of the FTL platforms seeded throughout the system. Why seed FTL platforms in an inadequately defended system? Beyond the fact that they're expensive systems, the RMN could not afford for the technology to fall into enemy hands.

Whatever happened to Vice Admiral Stanton?

SWM wrote:My impression is that Minette did not have any significant strategic value. It was important only because it was a member of the Manticoran Alliance. Manticore had to protect the members of the Alliance or it would lose those members' support. Haven attacked Minette to put pressure on the Manticoran Alliance. Pressure might cause members to leave the Alliance. Attacks on the members would certainly cause the members to demand more protection from the RMN, which would weaken their offensive forces. And Manticore would be obligated to free any Manticoran Alliance member system which was captured, as soon as possible. If they didn't, the other members would wonder about Manticore's commitment to protecting them.

The FTL platforms almost certainly have self-destruct systems. That's what they mean by scuttling. The FTL Comm secret was not in danger in Minette, because they could destroy it at any time, and did so. As a full member of the Manticoran Alliance, Minette certainly deserved the FTL Comm platforms.