Honorverse ramblings and musings

OrlandoNative wrote:
In any case, there appears to be some dichotomy within the series on this subject. In some of the earlier books, it would *appear* that ships could be tracked, intercepted, and even attacked while in hyper. Yet, especially in the latter books, that doesn't seem to be the case. All recent battles have been fought in normal space. Even in ART, the ships Honor had "hiding" in hyper didn't apparently detect the incoming 10th Fleet and give advance warning. There are other, similar situations throughout the latter half of the Havenite conflict where "traps" later sprung should have been detectable by the other side *if* the capabilities alluded to or stated in earlier books had really existed.

OrlandoNative wrote:At the time Artemis was to hide, both ships were still capable of hyper flight - Artemis's hyper generator was *damaged* but not not totally destroyed - she just couldn't go "high" enough to be able to escape. Probably wouldn't have been able to anyway, since it's unlikely a passenger liner would have the capability to outrun most, if not all, warships smaller than a battleship or dreadnaught.

In any case, there appears to be some dichotomy within the series on this subject. In some of the earlier books, it would *appear* that ships could be tracked, intercepted, and even attacked while in hyper. Yet, especially in the latter books, that doesn't seem to be the case. All recent battles have been fought in normal space. Even in ART, the ships Honor had "hiding" in hyper didn't apparently detect the incoming 10th Fleet and give advance warning. There are other, similar situations throughout the latter half of the Havenite conflict where "traps" later sprung should have been detectable by the other side *if* the capabilities alluded to or stated in earlier books had really existed.

Also, if ships whose hyper generators failed remained in hyper, it would seem to me that this would have become a regular part of the story line by now. Given the large number of starships involved in various battles and even just ship movements, surely by now some number of ships would have been lost merely traveling from point A to point B even without any battles. Yet there's never been a mention that "ship so-and-so appears to have been lost in transit". Or even where a ship later "limped" in late. However, the *only* case where we see something even similar to this is with Cachet and Zwilniki.

As for your supposition that some sort of safety override would throw a ship back into n-space upon imminent hyper generator failure *if* the ship were "close enough" to a habitable system, that doesn't really make much sense. If one goes by the earlier books in the series, sensor capability in hyper is much degraded over sensor capabilities in n-space. So chances are a ship which remained in hyper without any capability to drop back into n-space would never be found even if someone knew, approximately, where to search.

Realistically, if a ship whose hyper generator - but not the *rest* of it's propulsion systems - failed while in hyper was going to do *anything* it would make more sense to stay there, crawl to the nearest *inhabited* (not merely "habitable") and frequently visited system, and then wait there in hyper until a ship came by and call for help.

JeffEngel wrote:

lyonheart wrote:Hi Cthia,

Stephanie was named 'Deathfang's Bane' by the treecats; as I've posted before I suspect it wasn't a one time battle but a life long mission she assumed as quickly as possible, and provided Lionheart's clan with any weapons she could think they could make or maintain such as slings or large crossbows or ballistae (crew served-needing 2-3 treecats each) NTM hexapuma sized traps etc [dead-falls that wouldn't be triggered by a treecat or two] that could be dissembled and hidden, or locked and 'safed' etc when human visitors other than her arrived.

Feel free to suggest other weapons she might have supplied, tried, or at least considered.

Imagine if she managed to explain the power of pulleys...

Of course if the thread takes off, it may need a whole separate new one.

L

Yeah, if she could convey the ideas behind basic machines to some memory singer with an engineering interest... well, treecat society would probably be "Little Romans in the Trees" by Honor Harrington's time.

Still, treecats handle hexapumas pretty well already. There are exceptions, but those are exceptions. Better agriculture and heating in the winter would make for fewer treekitten losses - Sphinx winters will always be more dangerous than hexapumas - and weirs, salted/dried fish, and pottery for food preservation would also do a lot for improving the food situation.

OrlandoNative wrote:The question is "how basic"? There is a big difference between "basic tools" - which the treecats might be able to make on their own - and "machines"; which they probably couldn't.

Treecats could probably make spears, bows, clubs, stone axes and flint knives fairly easily. And nets and anything else made of rope or vines.

They should also be capable of making some kinds of pottery, and adobe bricks that could lead to more permanent structures and housing.

However, metal - which even most basic machines require for at least some parts - is something that generally requires *smelting*. Which generally requires fire. Something which most creatures covered by furry pelts usually try to stay away from as much as possible.

Also, there's the question of whether the treecats have any real inclination to use technology in the first place. They are well adapted to an arboreal, hunter-gatherer style environment, which they seem to like. There have certainly been cultures here on Earth that have "seen" technology being used by others around them but aren't really interested in using much, if any, of it themselves.

Saying that use of technology is "better" is, at best, a very subjected judgement, and, at worst, arrogance.

As for Stephanie, there's no indication in *any* of the literature that would indicate your position. Certainly if she had "given" the 'cats any weaponry, the capability to build and use it would have quickly spread amongst the clans... ...and while treecats *in general* are not usually warlike amongst themselves, something of that nature would probably have definitely shown up for use in Treecat Wars. It didn't, however.

Even in Honor's day, treecats don't seem all that interested in actual weapons. Nimitz has often helped protect Honor, but he's never used anything other than his claws (and possibly teeth) to do so. Surely he's *seen* enough weapons in use to understand *how* to use them, but he's never shown the slightest interest in doing so.

OrlandoNative wrote:Also, there's the question of whether the treecats have any real inclination to use technology in the first place. They are well adapted to an arboreal, hunter-gatherer style environment, which they seem to like. There have certainly been cultures here on Earth that have "seen" technology being used by others around them but aren't really interested in using much, if any, of it themselves.

Saying that use of technology is "better" is, at best, a very subjected judgement, and, at worst, arrogance.

OrlandoNative wrote:Even in Honor's day, treecats don't seem all that interested in actual weapons. Nimitz has often helped protect Honor, but he's never used anything other than his claws (and possibly teeth) to do so. Surely he's *seen* enough weapons in use to understand *how* to use them, but he's never shown the slightest interest in doing so.

OrlandoNative wrote:However, metal - which even most basic machines require for at least some parts - is something that generally requires *smelting*. Which generally requires fire. Something which most creatures covered by furry pelts usually try to stay away from as much as possible.

wiki wrote:At the time of their discovery, treecat civilization had not developed advanced technology, but was at or beyond the equivalent of the Terran Stone Age well before humans arrived, being able to control open fire, work stone, make stone and wood tools, weave fibers, make and use cordage (eg, knots, nets, lines, ...), and so on. Being fundamentally organized as territorial hunter-gatherer bands, they had not developed farming when humans colonized Sphinx, although shortly after they developed a rudimentary understanding of farming by observing humans and their gardens.[6]

Litte Romans In Trees

There are certain areas in which treecats do not and probably never will equal human capabilities, just as humans will never be telepaths or (with a few significant exceptions) empaths -- or certainly never on a scale which will conceivably equaled the abilities of treecats. One major treecat "disability" which probably precludes their ever developing a high-tech society of their own, is a fundamental inability to grasp higher mathematics. It is significant that a society which has been around for thousands upon thousands of years still refers to numbers in terms of "hands of hands" and has never developed a written form of mathematics. Obviously, this has strong implications for all areas of advanced human technology. It is possible, that this inability will begin to ease if and when the treecats do completely internalize the concept of written language. It is also possible that sufficiently persistent humans will be able to teach a treecat someday to transcend the current limitations of his species, and if that happens, the existence of the memory singers means that it would constitute effectively a species-wide breakthrough. Of course, it is always possible that the treecats will never approach human levels of ability in math.

For the foreseeable future, certainly, treecats will continue to regard human technology much as they have for the past several centuries. They will probably learn to use certain human tools more effectively and confidently than is currently the case, and they will not be actively uncomfortable in the presence of humans' machines and tools, but they will regard those devices as being uniquely "two-leg" in nature. On the social front, treecats will almost certainly become much more deeply integrated into human society as a whole, using their empathic abilities and their intuitive grasp of complex personal interrelationships to make themselves invaluable in such professions as psychology, politics, dispute arbitration, "social services," the law, etc. The precise effect which this will have upon their social and political standing is, of course, something which I have no intention of telling you about at this time.

As I have tried to indicate above and in my original post, not even Nimitz would actually grasp the underlying concepts and theory behind skinsuit impellers, because that's one of those areas where treecat brains simply don't work like human brains. But that does not mean that he is any more incapable of being trained in the safe operation of the equipment than a human. This is what I mean when I say that for the foreseeable future at least, treecats will tend to regard technology and advanced tools as being primarily "two-leg" things. They won't worry about the reasons things work, only about how to use those tools which suit their purposes effectively.

cthia wrote:Hoping to see in the movie as well...
1. The wedge.
2. The impeller drive
3. Hyper travel
4. Downward translations and the bleed of the sails.
5. Deploying the sails.
6. Swinging onto the ship in zero-g
7. Flipping ship for a zero zero intercept
8. Rolling ship to offer impenetrable wedge
9. Ship in queue for wormhole translation
10. Forts
11. Binary system
12. Resonance zone
13. Grayson orbital farms
14. Grayson's domed cities
15. The misleading beauty of Grayson from space
16. The wardrobe of Grayson women
17. Protector's Palace
18. The legendary Grayson key worn by Honor
19. Steadholders
20. The Key worn by Honor
21. The holo tank of CIC (That initially wowed the Graysons)
22. Central War Room. THE PIT
23. Last but not least on this list. Nimitz.

Heck, every time Honor or some CO ordered, "stand her up on her toes," I wasn't quite sure what was going on. The image in my head was of the Probe in Earth orbit standing end on end to initiate contact with the whales who mimicked the same maneuver under the ocean. The Voyage Home.

Vince wrote:

cthia wrote:Hoping to see in the movie as well...
1. The wedge.
2. The impeller drive
3. Hyper travel
4. Downward translations and the bleed of the sails.
5. Deploying the sails.
6. Swinging onto the ship in zero-g
7. Flipping ship for a zero zero intercept
8. Rolling ship to offer impenetrable wedge
9. Ship in queue for wormhole translation
10. Forts
11. Binary system
12. Resonance zone
13. Grayson orbital farms
14. Grayson's domed cities
15. The misleading beauty of Grayson from space
16. The wardrobe of Grayson women
17. Protector's Palace
18. The legendary Grayson key worn by Honor
19. Steadholders
20. The Key worn by Honor
21. The holo tank of CIC (That initially wowed the Graysons)
22. Central War Room. THE PIT
23. Last but not least on this list. Nimitz.

Heck, every time Honor or some CO ordered, "stand her up on her toes," I wasn't quite sure what was going on. The image in my head was of the Probe in Earth orbit standing end on end to initiate contact with the whales who mimicked the same maneuver under the ocean. The Voyage Home.

We may not see Honor wearing her Steadholder's Key in the movie, depending on how Evergreen adapts the books. Honor didn't actually receive the Key until her formal investiture as Steadholder of Harrington Steading* (where she was "in the presence of the assembled Steadholders of Grayson, to swear fealty to the Protector and People of Grayson under the eyes of God and His Holy Church" **, with two reservations to that oath, and acceptance of the first reservation by the Keys and acceptance of the second reservation by "Reverend Julius Hanks, spiritual head of the Church of Humanity Unchained" **) before the Conclave of Steadholders in Chapter 16*** of Field of Dishonor.

* Which was also the first time she wore a skirt (she arrived without ever having wore one at all, and sent the Graysons--even the Modernists--into a tizzy as a result until she finally gave in on wearing it), and we found out that receiving The Star of Grayson (at the end of The Honor of the Queen) for her defense of Grayson (in tHoTQ) made her Protector's Champion (setting up for the duel with Steadholder Mueller in Flag in Exile).

** Direct quote from Field of Dishonor, Chapter 16.

*** Honor's investiture as Steadholder of Harrington Steading takes up all of Chapter 16 of Field of Dishonor, which is why I'm not posting it here.

OrlandoNative wrote:At the time Artemis was to hide, both ships were still capable of hyper flight - Artemis's hyper generator was *damaged* but not not totally destroyed - she just couldn't go "high" enough to be able to escape. Probably wouldn't have been able to anyway, since it's unlikely a passenger liner would have the capability to outrun most, if not all, warships smaller than a battleship or dreadnaught.

SWM wrote:That is correct; Artemis was only damaged and could not get away without repairs. But you are wrong when you say that the Wayfarer was in normal space after it was crippled. It was not; the text is very clear. It was still in the Delta Band, and would be destroyed whenever the rogue grav wave came along. Contrary to your thesis, there are no grav waves in normal space.

runsforcelery wrote:Oh! One more thing. The grav wave which forms a wormhole is very, very powerful; the grav wave “current” which flows through a wormhole, while still much more powerful than any impeller wedge, is effective an eddy or ripple set up by the “roaring deep” grav wave which formed it in the first place rather than a part of that wave itself. In other words, there is no direct association between the strength of the forming grav-wave and the one a transiting starship must deal with during transit.

runsforcelery wrote:In terms of the effects of the relative motions of the components of the Manticore Binary System on the MWJ, Manticore-B is currently getting closer and closer to Manticore-A and, by 1920, we are well into a process which has stared to kick off cascade effects in the Junction and made the resonance zone far more actively dangerous to navigation. In another 200 years or so, Manticore-B will actually be closer to the Junction than Manticore-A is, at which point things are going to get ugly. Manticore-B will acquire its own (temporary) resonance zone (no one knows at this time how powerful it will be), and the hyper-space conditions in Manticore-A’s resonance zone will be absolutely lethal. Indeed, some hyper physicists are predicting that the zone will be so intense at that time that it will begin affecting normal-space navigation within the zone. By 2120, things will have settled back down into roughly their current state, and 300-400 years after that, the Manticore Binary System will be back to the nice, quiet conditions which obtained when the system was first settled.

cthia wrote:

Vince wrote:We may not see Honor wearing her Steadholder's Key in the movie, depending on how Evergreen adapts the books. Honor didn't actually receive the Key until her formal investiture as Steadholder of Harrington Steading* (where she was "in the presence of the assembled Steadholders of Grayson, to swear fealty to the Protector and People of Grayson under the eyes of God and His Holy Church" **, with two reservations to that oath, and acceptance of the first reservation by the Keys and acceptance of the second reservation by "Reverend Julius Hanks, spiritual head of the Church of Humanity Unchained" **) before the Conclave of Steadholders in Chapter 16*** of Field of Dishonor.

* Which was also the first time she wore a skirt (she arrived without ever having wore one at all, and sent the Graysons--even the Modernists--into a tizzy as a result until she finally gave in on wearing it), and we found out that receiving The Star of Grayson (at the end of The Honor of the Queen) for her defense of Grayson (in tHoTQ) made her Protector's Champion (setting up for the duel with Steadholder Mueller in Flag in Exile).

** Direct quote from Field of Dishonor, Chapter 16.

*** Honor's investiture as Steadholder of Harrington Steading takes up all of Chapter 16 of Field of Dishonor, which is why I'm not posting it here.

You're right about the Key Vince. My apology. But you also reminded me of the Star of Grayson. Didn't she receive that at books end?

Another thing I'd really love to see, though I know it is too early, is the four-meter statue of the Peep boogeywoman.

And we might see Mount Royal Palace! Maybe even White Haven. They could use the Biltmore Estate as a filming location for something.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biltmore_E ... Estate.jpg