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Honorverse ramblings and musings

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by crewdude48   » Tue May 12, 2015 3:45 pm

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OrlandoNative wrote:
drothgery wrote:Well, it's possible that given Honorverse medicine, untreatable deafness may be all but unheard of. But given that a present-day cell phone probably has nearly enough CPU and a good enough camera for the job, it ought to be just a software issue if it doesn't already exist.


I suspect if deafness was completely curable, then Dr Arif wouldn't have known how to sign and be able to teach it to her treecat "student" originally.


I don't think she did know how to sign. I seem to remember that she had to dig up old records of ASL, and then figure it out. I doubt that deafness will ever be completely cured, but with regeneration and prosthetics, there is no way that it could affect more than a tiny fraction of a tiny fraction of a population that can repair or replace 99% of the causes of deafness. Anything short of brain damage to a non-regenerating person can be fixed easily.
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by cthia   » Tue May 12, 2015 3:49 pm

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Hutch wrote:There are the old 'friend of a friend' tales about the guy getting drunk with a group of strangers and waking up the next morning with his kidney removed, and some (IIRC, not fully validated) stories of people in poorer counties selling (or have them being sold) parts of their bodies, so it is nothing new.

And as much as I admire the MWW, it's an idea that did not start with him. Read some of the stories by Larry Niven, especially the Gil "the ARM" Hamilton, about a near future where the need for transplants outstrips the legitimate supply. Quite disturbing in its' way.

Niven even coined the term for it...Organleggers.

cthia wrote:Trust me Hutch. It's quite new to ME! You're talking to a guy that had to have special allowances made for him in advanced biology. Dissecting a cat, "BAM!" What was that? Oh that was just a 195 lb quarterback hitting the phucking floor, passed out from watching "THE filmstrip," of open heart surgery and the beating of a guys heart while opened up like a can of sardines.

So I don't do those type movies or books. I'll toss them first descriptive paragraph. I'm here with my head threatening my desk now from this one exchange.

I don't do blood and gore. I don't do possessions. I've never watched "The Exorcist" all the way through, let alone the special edition. I was talked into it the first time - my silly ass! And what the hell was Linda Blair's problem? Will somebody just slap that bitch already! Little wonder that most everyone from that movie is now DEAD I've heard. And she was in therapy! GO FIGURE!

Organleggers? Unphuckingbelievable.

Uh, I'll pass. I'm more of a hold the pickle, hold the lettuce, hold the organs kind of guy. And I don't care for Klingon bloodpie either.

Yes, I'm a wimp. Heard it from family members all of my life.

My niece teases "It's just blood uncle."

NO IT ISN'T. It's MY blood. After my knees grow weak, buckle, and I topple over splitting my head on the nearest sharp object!

SWM wrote:Wow. You've never heard of it before? The first Larry Niven story about organlegging was written in 1973. And the tales of it happening in real life are even older. Now, almost all of those tales are urban legends, but the idea has certainly been around for most of your life.

But I'd have to say you're pretty lucky to have missed hearing those tales when you were young. :)

No, I've never heard of it. And I agree with you, I was lucky. It's disgusting. In 1973, I was still a little kid. My older brother would launch into a blood and guts tirade at the dinner table to make me sick so he could get my dinner. Until my sisters insisted that my parents stop it for fear I'd starve.

Asimov. Heinlein. Edgar Rice Burroughs. Jules Verne, were all staples of mine too. As well as C.S. Lewis, Arthur C. Clarke and others. In fact, Honor's stint at Cerberus reminded me of a past sci-fi read of a similar name, by Gene Wolfe The Fifth Head of Cerberus.

My favorite series before Weber was the Mars Trilogy by Kim Stanley Robinson.

But mostly, in the 70's, I was overdosing on computers and I was caught up by Edgar Allen Poe and Shakespeare. I just couldn't turn them loose. I read Poe so much I could hear a pendulum swinging when I went to bed. (Wait, what's that sound...)

But Organleggers? I would have steered as clear of anything even remotely resembling that. I do appreciate the info, but I'm getting weak kneed just discussing it.

Organleggers sounds so much like harvesting organs to me. Certainly the Honorverse would have its future version of Mary Shelley as an author and Frankenstein as a subject. Can we say Detweiler and the genetic slaves, respectively? :lol:

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by cthia   » Tue May 12, 2015 4:38 pm

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The Tellerman wave was a natural phenomenon near the Basilisk System that was among the most powerful gravity waves ever charted. It was associated with the "Roaring Deeps". Its direction, from the perspective of Basilisk, was directly towards the Republic of Haven. They were considered a potentially dangerous navigational hazard. Some adventurous starship captains, however, used the wave to go faster.
In 1900 PD, PMSS Sirius attempted to reach the Tellerman wave to get to the Havenite fleet faster, but was intercepted by HMS Fearless. (HH1)


The Selker Rift was a hyperspace rift about twenty light years short of the Sachsen System.

It was essentially a volume between two prominent grav waves. It was unavoidable for starships traveling between the Anderman Empire and the Silesian Confederacy on the Triangle Route. Most ships crossed it under impeller drive at a speed of .16 c to allow them to dodge a dangerous rogue wave known as the Selker Shear. This extended the travel time through the rift to about five t-days, leaving freighters exposed to piracy.
In 1910 PD, the Battle of the Selker Rift took place in the area. (HH6)

The phased array gravity drive, more commonly known as the impeller drive, was the preeminent sublight propulsion mechanism for spacefaring vessels of the Post Diaspora era.

It could also be used for propulsion in hyperspace, but was highly dangerous when making contact with a gravity wave. Transforming it into a Warshawski sail largely removed this danger.

I'm having a hard time viaualising this. So what does a ship do, reconfigure from sails after exiting a grav wave carrying < .16 c speeds across in a downward translation then going to impeller drives only to reconfigure to sails before reaching the other wave?

No wonder they are vulnerable to pirates. But it seems this is the one place where no freighter should ever tread alone without a naval escort. Rather humorous if you think about it, freighters are like little old ladies needing help to cross the street.

But how dangerous is it? I hate being given generalities. Is it as dangerous an undertaking as removing the safety intelocks on the engine?... however dangerous that is.

Either the movie will clear up many inconsistencies in my mind or piss me off to no end.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by OrlandoNative   » Tue May 12, 2015 6:44 pm

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That's the reasons for convoys. The problem, though, is that sometimes there's not one when you need it.

For example, a freighter carrying perishable goods (like produce, fruit, or fresh meat) may not be able to wait long enough for a convoy to come by, or for a new one to form. Or, for that matter, there may not be a warship available for an escort.
"Yield to temptation, it may not pass your way again."
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by JeffEngel   » Tue May 12, 2015 6:49 pm

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cthia wrote:I'm having a hard time viaualising this. So what does a ship do, reconfigure from sails after exiting a grav wave carrying < .16 c speeds across in a downward translation then going to impeller drives only to reconfigure to sails before reaching the other wave?

No wonder they are vulnerable to pirates. But it seems this is the one place where no freighter should ever tread alone without a naval escort. Rather humorous if you think about it, freighters are like little old ladies needing help to cross the street.

But how dangerous is it? I hate being given generalities. Is it as dangerous an undertaking as removing the safety intelocks on the engine?... however dangerous that is.

Either the movie will clear up many inconsistencies in my mind or piss me off to no end.

I don't expect a lick of help from the movie on this score, if any. Honestly, it is likely to be off on its own canon and bringing up all sorts of inconsistencies with the books and maybe plenty in itself.

To moving between grav waves - Space is BIG. Even crossing the Selker Rift, there will be vast numbers of routes to take far enough apart that a single ship won't be able to monitor two of them at a time, or even one. The PHN was using a line of ships and got lucky. I think there was some grumbling in there about their odds. If not, there could have been. And the Selker Sheer will be a threat to the warships or pirates as much as the freighters, and harder on ships trying to maintain a position rather than dodge it on the way from A to B.

It's a reminder that interstellar commerce is risky. Here, it can be risky in deep space instead of just along a grav wave or in the outer reaches of a star system. But it's not something that will get you plain killed trying.
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by Roguevictory   » Tue May 12, 2015 8:50 pm

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OrlandoNative wrote:That's the reasons for convoys. The problem, though, is that sometimes there's not one when you need it.

For example, a freighter carrying perishable goods (like produce, fruit, or fresh meat) may not be able to wait long enough for a convoy to come by, or for a new one to form. Or, for that matter, there may not be a warship available for an escort.



I agree. Rremember by the time the movie will take place the SKM has been focusing more on producing ships for the pending war with Haven, and less on warships for anti-piracy missions. And even when ships for anti-pirate missions was the primary focus of the RMN's shipbuilding programs they never had enough warships to escort every SKM freighter while still carrying out the navy's other responsibilities. And the buildup for the Haven war made the shortage of convoy and frieghter escorts worse.
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by Bill Woods   » Tue May 12, 2015 9:26 pm

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cthia wrote: Organleggers sounds so much like harvesting organs to me. Certainly the Honorverse would have its future version of Mary Shelley as an author and Frankenstein as a subject. Can we say Detweiler and the genetic slaves, respectively? :lol:
Well, yeah, the organleggers often didn't exactly buy the organs from their former owners.

From another work from the same era, Starwell (1968) by Alexei Panshin:
"There, there, loves. You're going to be thumbs. And legs, and toes, and arms, bones, veins, and nerves. You're going to make somebody well again. Doesn't that make you feel good inside? Skins for the skinless. Shins for the shinless. Hearts for the heartless. Parts for the partless.
Do you know what the greatest shortage in thumb-running is? Small body parts. I think they'll look forward to you."
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Imagined conversation:
Admiral [noting yet another Manty tech surprise]:
XO, what's the budget for the ONI?
Vice Admiral: I don't recall exactly, sir. Several billion quatloos.
Admiral: ... What do you suppose they did with all that money?
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by OrlandoNative   » Wed May 13, 2015 11:30 am

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JeffEngel wrote:
cthia wrote:I'm having a hard time viaualising this. So what does a ship do, reconfigure from sails after exiting a grav wave carrying < .16 c speeds across in a downward translation then going to impeller drives only to reconfigure to sails before reaching the other wave?

No wonder they are vulnerable to pirates. But it seems this is the one place where no freighter should ever tread alone without a naval escort. Rather humorous if you think about it, freighters are like little old ladies needing help to cross the street.

But how dangerous is it? I hate being given generalities. Is it as dangerous an undertaking as removing the safety intelocks on the engine?... however dangerous that is.

Either the movie will clear up many inconsistencies in my mind or piss me off to no end.

I don't expect a lick of help from the movie on this score, if any. Honestly, it is likely to be off on its own canon and bringing up all sorts of inconsistencies with the books and maybe plenty in itself.

To moving between grav waves - Space is BIG. Even crossing the Selker Rift, there will be vast numbers of routes to take far enough apart that a single ship won't be able to monitor two of them at a time, or even one. The PHN was using a line of ships and got lucky. I think there was some grumbling in there about their odds. If not, there could have been. And the Selker Sheer will be a threat to the warships or pirates as much as the freighters, and harder on ships trying to maintain a position rather than dodge it on the way from A to B.

It's a reminder that interstellar commerce is risky. Here, it can be risky in deep space instead of just along a grav wave or in the outer reaches of a star system. But it's not something that will get you plain killed trying.


I agree. Movies usually don't get *too* technical, because a fair amount of the audience usually isn't up on technical details anyway (even the audience for a science fiction movie); and the amount of information that would be needed to actually get them up to speed would likely take the entire movie to impart; leaving no time for the actual story.

Also, while this is more of a subjective observation, I think most folks like "MacGyverism"... ...folks having to "cobble up" something that works on the fly.

And, as noted, movies are usually *horrible* at "clearing things up" from a novel they may be based on. Not surprising, though - most novels encompass days, weeks, months, or even some number of years, while most movies are, what, 2 hours or so? Many books you couldn't even *read* enjoyably in 2 hours.

On the subject of "strained space" - ie areas of grav disturbance that doesn't allow normal "high speed" hyperspace travel - think of them as the equivalent of "choke points" in the oceans of a wet water navy. They're places where vessels have to go through, usually slowly, which may form some kind of bottleneck. So a predatory vessel is much more likely to come across it's "prey" there, rather than out on the open ocean.

Even so, however, it's true that space is vast. That's why most pirates generally operated in the fringes of various relatively undeveloped (and undefended) star systems. While you may not know where any particular ship may be coming *from*, or exactly what course it will take, you know where it's going *to*; which makes it much easier to intercept at the end of it's journey, rather than at some intermediate point.

That was the problem in Silesia, there were lots of systems, most not highly developed, and the Silesian navy, such as it was, was only present in what the Confederacy considered the most important ones. So unless a RMN or Andermani ship happened to pay a visit at the same time the pirate did, the pirates pretty much had free reign.
"Yield to temptation, it may not pass your way again."
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by SWM   » Wed May 13, 2015 12:21 pm

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The movie isn't going to clear any of this up, because there are neither Rifts nor grav waves anywhere in the book. And the amount of text that takes place in hyperspace is minimal. It is entirely possible that none of the movie will take place in hyperspace at all.
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by munroburton   » Wed May 13, 2015 12:48 pm

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SWM wrote:The movie isn't going to clear any of this up, because there are neither Rifts nor grav waves anywhere in the book. And the amount of text that takes place in hyperspace is minimal. It is entirely possible that none of the movie will take place in hyperspace at all.


There's that scene where Alice Truman orders her engineer to take the safety interlocks out and redlines her ship all the way to Manticore for reinforcements. Admittedly, in the books it took place before the ship actually went into hyperspace, but I'm expecting something like that scene in the Wing Commander movie, when Admiral Tolwyn orders the fleet to increase reactor output from 110% to 120%, accepting the risk of overloads to arrive at the battlefield before the enemy did. Dramatic! Tension!

HotQ is also full of hyper journeys. Honor's squadron accounts for four of those and the Masadans went back and forth more often, including towing LACs in hyperspace.
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