Honorverse ramblings and musings

cthia wrote:Yes, but plausible deniability would still come into play if the weapons would have come from a manufacturer other than Haven.

Why didn't they just teach them to make them? Text-ev states it's just a matter of time 'til they do anyways, after the fact. Plausible deniability still. "What, we didn't teach them to make the things. And we didn't supply the metal."

"Give them a gun, they shoot for a day. Give them the plans and they raise holy-hell."

They _did_ teach them how to make them. But they also required more of them than the Stilties could have made on their own. As for trying to pin it on someone else--Haven didn't want anyone to even suspect that any foreign power had anything to do with the uprising. It was supposed to look entirely like a native rebellion. The idea was to get the people of Manticore (particularly the Liberals and Progressives) to believe that the natives rejected Manticore's control. That would put pressure on the government to stop any attempts at regaining control of Basilisk or the terminus.

If there was any evidence to suggest a foreign power was behind the rebellion (even it the evidence pointed away from Haven), there would not be nearly as much resistance to trying to regain Basilisk.

cthia wrote:But they wouldn't even have needed an idiot on station if they'd done without the two 'useless' ships. Even Harrington wouldn't have been able to stop them if they'd a-come sailing over the hyper wall.

"Hey, we were just in the neighborhood and policy dictates that we contact our embassy. Guess what we have just been informed?"

Even Harrington would have been caught off-guard. And the Stilties jumped the gun because they grew weary of waiting to attack. They had to wait because the plan was needlessly complicated. Neither Coglin or Sirius was needed, as I can see. Or perhaps the Courier boat could have innocently shown up 12 hrs earlier to make sure all is well.

I'm with the Stilts on that one. "What's the phucking holdup?"

The Stilts were ready to spread lead. So let 'em.

That scheduled date was established only shortly before Harrington got wind of the plot. As I recall, there were some delays in getting things set up. The Sirius was not intended to sit there as long as she did. And even when they set that date, it was specified that it was the date the Fleet should show up unless they received the launch order even earlier.

Haven knew all along that they would not be able to established a fixed date for the Fleet to show up. There were too many variables in play on Basilisk. It depended on how quickly the natives could be gathered, how quickly they could be trained to use the guns, how well the shamans could handle things, exactly what the NPA was doing, how quickly they could smuggle things out to the natives, and so on. They could not create a fixed schedule--they needed someone on the scene to keep an eye on things, make decisions, adjust the schedule, and make the final decision on when to call in the cavalry. The Fleet was waiting out there for weeks to hear when they would be called in. When they finally set a fixed date for the Fleet to show up, it was intended as a fail-safe, in case neither the Sirius nor the courier was able to reach them with the Go order.

SWM wrote:

cthia wrote:But they wouldn't even have needed an idiot on station if they'd done without the two 'useless' ships. Even Harrington wouldn't have been able to stop them if they'd a-come sailing over the hyper wall.

"Hey, we were just in the neighborhood and policy dictates that we contact our embassy. Guess what we have just been informed?"

Even Harrington would have been caught off-guard. And the Stilties jumped the gun because they grew weary of waiting to attack. They had to wait because the plan was needlessly complicated. Neither Coglin or Sirius was needed, as I can see. Or perhaps the Courier boat could have innocently shown up 12 hrs earlier to make sure all is well.

I'm with the Stilts on that one. "What's the phucking holdup?"

The Stilts were ready to spread lead. So let 'em.

That scheduled date was established only shortly before Harrington got wind of the plot. As I recall, there were some delays in getting things set up. The Sirius was not intended to sit there as long as she did. And even when they set that date, it was specified that it was the date the Fleet should show up unless they received the launch order even earlier.

Haven knew all along that they would not be able to established a fixed date for the Fleet to show up. There were too many variables in play on Basilisk. It depended on how quickly the natives could be gathered, how quickly they could be trained to use the guns, how well the shamans could handle things, exactly what the NPA was doing, how quickly they could smuggle things out to the natives, and so on. They could not create a fixed schedule--they needed someone on the scene to keep an eye on things, make decisions, adjust the schedule, and make the final decision on when to call in the cavalry. The Fleet was waiting out there for weeks to hear when they would be called in. When they finally set a fixed date for the Fleet to show up, it was intended as a fail-safe, in case neither the Sirius nor the courier was able to reach them with the Go order.

I yield. Must agree with all that you say. Plus, it was lots of hindsight is 20/20 on my part, to be fair to Haven.

In the previous post my question was why didn't they teach the Stilts to make "heavy artillery" from the jump.

Two ships though, was silly. No way should Coglin's ship have been there. Even he said as much. If you're concerned with plausible deniability.

How, when you write about Soap Operas in Space,
can you possibly omit "Another World?"

Besides the very name:

Don't you know that two or three actors trained by AW,
moved on to Star Trek: The Next Generation??

As for Awareness of other cultures,
AW was the Soap that sent a couple to Italy for their
wedding ... and conducted the service in Italian!

AW tested a teenager's claim to have spent years in
France, by having another teen question her in French!!
(Real French; I was so proud that I understood it.)

H. True Map-addict

cthia wrote:
Later conversation.

"Give it to Katyanna. She loves soap operas."

"You can't compare the Honorverse to soaps sis!"

"Sure I can. Manticore is "As The World Turns." Grayson is "The Guiding Light." Masada is "All My Children." The SLN are "General Hospital." The genetically engineered slaves are "The Bold and the Beautiful."

"You forgot the RHN."

"Ryan's Hope."

"Beowulf?"

"90210 and Peyton Place."

My sister. If it isn't John le Carre, Stephen Coonts, Michael Deaver, etc. Forget it. Sci-Fi isn't her cup of tea, or coffee.

Though I must admit. The soap comparisons are rather funny.

cthia wrote:Two ships though, was silly. No way should Coglin's ship have been there. Even he said as much. If you're concerned with plausible deniability.

Now that, I will grant. It was not necessary to use the Sirius at Basilisk when they had legitimate reason to have the courier there. It provided some extra reliability, but no genuine advantage. The one explanation I can think of is that the Havenite government didn't entirely trust the ambassador to Basilisk to handle it himself, wanted someone from special ops to babysit the project. Of course, they then sent an even deeper agent out to check on Coglin, too. Haven apparently didn't have a great deal of confidence in its operatives.

SWM wrote:

cthia wrote:Two ships though, was silly. No way should Coglin's ship have been there. Even he said as much. If you're concerned with plausible deniability.

Now that, I will grant. It was not necessary to use the Sirius at Basilisk when they had legitimate reason to have the courier there. It provided some extra reliability, but no genuine advantage. The one explanation I can think of is that the Havenite government didn't entirely trust the ambassador to Basilisk to handle it himself, wanted someone from special ops to babysit the project. Of course, they then sent an even deeper agent out to check on Coglin, too. Haven apparently didn't have a great deal of confidence in its operatives.

There was that, but I think some of it was also competing government organs, each trying to snag credit for a success and avoid blame in case of failure. Some of that distrust may have been operational security gone overboard, too, creating a need for additional agents in the mix. (For their own risks to security. Sheesh.)

SWM wrote:

cthia wrote:Two ships though, was silly. No way should Coglin's ship have been there. Even he said as much. If you're concerned with plausible deniability.

Now that, I will grant. It was not necessary to use the Sirius at Basilisk when they had legitimate reason to have the courier there. It provided some extra reliability, but no genuine advantage. The one explanation I can think of is that the Havenite government didn't entirely trust the ambassador to Basilisk to handle it himself, wanted someone from special ops to babysit the project. Of course, they then sent an even deeper agent out to check on Coglin, too. Haven apparently didn't have a great deal of confidence in its operatives.

There was no reason to use a Q-ship for the 2nd ship. But Haven had a reason, however unimportant it might seem, for the 2nd ship.

They wanted a (purported) merchantman "fleeing in terror", not an official government dispatch boat.

Now I totally agree that it should have been an actual merchant ship; with no discrepancies that could trip them up if noticed by an observant naval force. And there should have been some allowance for rotating the merchant ships out so one didn't have to hang around so implausibly long. (Now having a stream of them is suspicious in another way, but not as much so as deliberately losing money hanging around waiting for Haven to dispatch a repair ship)

S.O.S.

The scene in The Honor of the Queen when Theisman suckered Honor's ship as they were circling the base was tactical genius. Of course, Theisman. Now Theisman had benefit of Blackbird's sensors. Would someone tell me why, in situations like that, probes are not steered around a planet to cover blind spots? If they're destroyed, you know something's lurking.

cthia wrote:S.O.S.

The scene in The Honor of the Queen when Theisman suckered Honor's ship as they were circling the base was tactical genius. Of course, Theisman. Now Theisman had benefit of Blackbird's sensors. Would someone tell me why, in situations like that, probes are not steered around a planet to cover blind spots? If they're destroyed, you know something's lurking.

This was pre-war. I would guess that up to then, drones were not seen as effective battlefield devices. In fact, we don't see very much from drones on the battlefield until Ghost Rider came out. It is an interesting question, though.

I agree that Haven should have been using an actual merchi. Sirrus was an attempt to carry belt and suspenders security a bridge too far. The purpose, however, could have been carried off with Sirrus against the normal Pavel Young caliber people the RMN had been sending out. It was the unpleasant surprise of having to deal with a competent officer that derailed the plan.

As for the dispatch boat, that seems to me to be normal enough provision for the consulate that the Peeps had set up.

The consulate itself seemed a bit much given the actual commercial possibilities on Medusa. But given a consulate, a dispatch boat seems to be a part of the package.

Don