Honorverse ramblings and musings

There seem to be times when a treecat with their person could be a detriment in one aspect. Take Honor for instance, she must maintain a poker face in most all occasions, yet if one were to learn to read treecat mannerisms, much could be ascertained. Treecats don't exactly wear a poker face. Their mannerisms mimic what their persons are feeling inside. Nimitz' rapid jerking of the tail when Honor is on edge. Flattening of the ears, and his snarl when Honor's angry.

Treecats are not the most subtle of souls... The very idea of masking their emotions is an alien concept to them, they literally can't with fellow treecats.

Direwolf18 wrote:Treecats are not the most subtle of souls... The very idea of masking their emotions is an alien concept to them, they literally can't with fellow treecats.

Could be a liability in certain cases.

When Erewhon was driven away by the High Ridge government. Shouldn't there have been, wouldn't there have been, certain legal agreements in place to prevent them from divulging the RMN's military secrets? It seems the RMN should have had some sort of legal recourse.

cthia wrote:When Erewhon was driven away by the High Ridge government. Shouldn't there have been, wouldn't there have been, certain legal agreements in place to prevent them from divulging the RMN's military secrets? It seems the RMN should have had some sort of legal recourse.

My guess is that High Ridge had ignored so many of the terms and agreements of the Alliance that Manticore complaining would have just led to Erewhon sending a list of High Ridge's violations to them leaving Manticore with no leg to stand on complaint wise and possibly other members leaving due to Manticore's hypocrisy.

cthia wrote:When Erewhon was driven away by the High Ridge government. Shouldn't there have been, wouldn't there have been, certain legal agreements in place to prevent them from divulging the RMN's military secrets? It seems the RMN should have had some sort of legal recourse.

The problem is even if there was some sort of legal agreement, in who's court of law would it be decided in?

I suggest reading this Pearl of Weber: The Honorverse and Interstellar Law.

cthia wrote:I understand all of both of your points. And it lightens many a dark area. It also raises other questions and concerns.

1. On the Haven side, both sides actually, if it was written explicitly into law as an unavoidable protocol to check all correspondence personally, in the same sense as Grayson Steadholders must be accompanied off planet by armsmen, then Eloise can't not (double neg appropos here) ask to do so as it is legally out of her hands and it would free her from the worry of social impropriety.

2. On Manticore's end, the passkey should only be known to Elizabeth herself, and maybe, maybe one other, as only two people carry keys to arm ICBMs. Therefore, if the passkey is acquired under those circumstances, then a serious breach in security is at hand.

The problem with those is that there's too much routine diplomatic communication necessary to make it effective to bottleneck it all through the head of state.

Your State Department / Foreign Office has to be able to generate and send diplomatic notes without running each of them by the president / queen for wording approval and signature. If you don't trust your diplomats and their organization you're suppose to replace them. (Especially now that, with the Honorverse, you're back to diplomats who are weeks or more from being able to consult with their superiors. Like they were historically, they need to be trusted to make certain levels of binding decisions for their country without the time to consult with the Sec of State; much less their head of state)

Now I can certainly see the argument that this particular negotiation was probably one of the most critical and important ones in decades, and therefore should have been elevated to a higher level (which as a side effect would have the heads of state personally signing all correspondence). [Heck, we happen to know that if the Manties had elevated it enough that Descroix was signing the notes with her personal key as the Foreign Minister that would have prevented the editing (instead they were signed if effect as 'The Foreign Office'; using a more widely shared department key)


On the other hand, this was the grunt work stage where they were negotiating when and where to sit down and really negotiate (arguing about the shape of the conference table); plus outlining some starting positions for negotiation. When the real talks happened that's when the heads of state would have gotten personally involved; and where the actual peace terms would have been determined.

These pre-talks shouldn't have been able to blow up the cease-fire. It was really only the ability to forge the Manties notes that allowed it to do so. Because it was the argument about forged diplomatic notes that really added the heat to the issue. Blatantly overreaching starting points are just par for the course; Haven could have been asking for Trevor's Star back all along and it wouldn't have had anywhere near the effect; not without them publicly blaming each other for lying about their communications.

cthia wrote:When exactly did Honor began to enjoy diplomatic immunity? Did she have it when Haven cooked up that ridiculous murder ploy? After all she had been conducting many diplomatic liaisons between Manticore and Grayson?

Despite what other people have said, I don't think Honor has diplomatic immunity under normal circumstances. I don't think even a head of state has diplomatic immunity, except when specifically named as a diplomatic representative to another state. In this case, Honor was given (complete with the appropriate written authority) full diplomatic power to negotiate a treaty, and thus was an ambassador plenipotentiary.

And in response to a later question, no, an ambassador does not automatically get dispelled if they commit a high crime. It is up to the host country whether to expel an ambassador, and they can do it whenever they want, whether or not a crime has been committed. They can, if they choose, completely ignore first degree murder and keep talking to an ambassador.

SWM wrote:

cthia wrote:When exactly did Honor began to enjoy diplomatic immunity? Did she have it when Haven cooked up that ridiculous murder ploy? After all she had been conducting many diplomatic liaisons between Manticore and Grayson?

Despite what other people have said, I don't think Honor has diplomatic immunity under normal circumstances. I don't think even a head of state has diplomatic immunity, except when specifically named as a diplomatic representative to another state.

Honor, and more importantly her personal armsmen have had diplomatic immunity in Manticoran Jurisdiction since Paul Tankersly's death for sure, and technically since she was made Steadholder Harrington.

Judging by her first encounter with Chien-lu Anderman Steadholder Harrington and her armsmen have diplomatic immunity even when Admiral Honor Harrington doesn't -- a strange quirk of being two distinct entities with one body.


You might be correct in the real world, but I'm virtually certain that a visiting head of state -- and most visiting royalty, like Princes Ruth in Erewhon -- enjoy diplomatic immunity in the Honorverse.

cthia wrote:

Commodore Oakius wrote:
Yes, she could but consider the ramifcations if she did. The precedent that would be set. Its too dangerous to give a full pardon.
i agree that she could allow them to visit but...

And just like that, this dog can finally let that bone go. Even though I still feel that certain officers at least deserve pardon, I can now appreciate why it may not be a good idea. I don't know how I couldn't reason it out for myself, except chocking another up to my half-brainitis. I never considered the precedent it'd set and possible unintended wayward messages sent to potential traitors. Thanks Commodore. You've a political mind too eh? Unlike me!

Hey, look at that, I helped someone!!!!!! Firat time for evrything.
I love diplomacy, and politics go hand in had so I know a bit. Far from an expert but... I have had my moments.

[quote="cthia]I understand all of both of your points. And it lightens many a dark area. It also raises other questions and concerns.

1. On the Haven side, both sides actually, if it was written explicitly into law as an unavoidable protocol to check all correspondence personally, in the same sense as Grayson Steadholders must be accompanied off planet by armsmen, then Eloise can't not (double neg appropos here) ask to do so as it is legally out of her hands and it would free her from the worry of social impropriety.

2. On Manticore's end, the passkey should only be known to Elizabeth herself, and maybe, maybe one other, as only two people carry keys to arm ICBMs. Therefore, if the passkey is acquired under those circumstances, then a serious breach in security is at hand.[/quote]
If I may dig in again?
Both of these creates a situation of too much control in the one person. Dealing only with Manticore, Elizabeth would then have to sign off on every single diplomatci message that is sent out, if she had the only key. It would also be against the Manty Consitution, which the foreign minister has that power.
It would also give the crown a large amount of power over the foreign policy, agian, in the hands of the minister.