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Big Spoiler for Sword of the South and a Question

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Re: Big Spoiler for Sword of the South and a Question
Post by thanatos   » Sat May 09, 2015 4:52 pm

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jchilds wrote:
“Shekarū, Herrik!” He screamed. “Ottar shen Cleres! Ottar ken Toren!”


"[No idea, possibly something impolite ;) ], Herrik!" He screamed. "(I am) Ottar, grandson of Cleres, son of Toren!" would be my guess...

PS - Anybody get a tart count for this book?


I think it's something along the lines of "Ottovarans remember [Emperor] Cleres! Ottovarans born of (or loyal to) Toren!"

I do have to wonder though what RFC meant in the aforementioned pearl about both Herrik and Toren being dropped by said artifact (which by all accounts seems to be the Sword of the South). Was Toren (as is bearer) consumed magically by the sword to be spit out now when the time was right? Was it just his essence/soul? Is Kenhodan a descendant of House Ottovar (though this would seem far to close to LOTR and its line of kings)?

One thing is made clear though: The Carnadosans believe that they have Herrik's heir on their side (the cat-eyed sorcerer) and thus have the only legitimate claim to the Griffin Throne and that no legitimate heirs exist on Toren's side of the family. Even if Norfressa would prevail, the question of who would rule in Kontovar would remain (which is what the Carnadosans are counting on). But if indeed Kenhodan is Toren's heir or Toren "reborn" somehow, then they're in trouble. They would have to win the fight or at least end it in a draw to stay in power.
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Re: Big Spoiler for Sword of the South and a Question
Post by ericth   » Wed May 13, 2015 4:39 pm

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I was rereading SotS, and when I came to the part about Lentos and Trayn discussing how far back Wencit's plans must go and how he knew over nine centuries ago enough about the mage talent to know that wand wizardry couldnt mix with it, a nasty suspicion dawned on me.

I begin to wonder if Wencit and perhaps the Council/Toren had something to do with it. If Wencit et all decided that they needed a safer counterpart to the wizard talent, and settled on the mage talent as their alternative.

It could also explain why Wencit never tried to train any new good wizards, as well as why no Kontovaran ever manifested: It was because the talent was introduced either in Norfressa or in the refugees headed up north.

One could argue that it was a beneficial modification similar to that which produced the Coursers and Sothoii warhorses, and thus within the strictures.
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Re: Big Spoiler for Sword of the South and a Question
Post by Graydon   » Fri May 15, 2015 1:23 pm

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thanatos wrote:One thing is made clear though: The Carnadosans believe that they have Herrik's heir on their side (the cat-eyed sorcerer) and thus have the only legitimate claim to the Griffin Throne and that no legitimate heirs exist on Toren's side of the family. Even if Norfressa would prevail, the question of who would rule in Kontovar would remain (which is what the Carnadosans are counting on). But if indeed Kenhodan is Toren's heir or Toren "reborn" somehow, then they're in trouble. They would have to win the fight or at least end it in a draw to stay in power.


I don't think Kenhodan is the heir. I think Gwynna is. I think the granting of favour with the dagger is _literal_ ("you fight in my name"), not a romantic setup. It's the future Empress (who needs to be a wild wizard to do what needs to be done, just like Ottovar had to be) granting their future conquering general their imprinteur. (Kenhodan is probably Toren in a meaningful mystical sense, but probably not in a "can restore the empire as heir" sense.)

Remember that Leanna is heir-conveyant even under Sothoii laws (and that they're the old noble families, "sons of the fathers", and the Bowmasters are very old as a family) and that we by no means know that the Empire of Ottovar was a male-primogeniture system. And it would explain, given the current setup, why Wencit was willing to re-strafe Kontovar if anyone arcanely threatened Leanna.
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Re: Big Spoiler for Sword of the South and a Question
Post by Kytheros   » Fri May 15, 2015 10:09 pm

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Graydon wrote:
thanatos wrote:One thing is made clear though: The Carnadosans believe that they have Herrik's heir on their side (the cat-eyed sorcerer) and thus have the only legitimate claim to the Griffin Throne and that no legitimate heirs exist on Toren's side of the family. Even if Norfressa would prevail, the question of who would rule in Kontovar would remain (which is what the Carnadosans are counting on). But if indeed Kenhodan is Toren's heir or Toren "reborn" somehow, then they're in trouble. They would have to win the fight or at least end it in a draw to stay in power.


I don't think Kenhodan is the heir. I think Gwynna is. I think the granting of favour with the dagger is _literal_ ("you fight in my name"), not a romantic setup. It's the future Empress (who needs to be a wild wizard to do what needs to be done, just like Ottovar had to be) granting their future conquering general their imprinteur. (Kenhodan is probably Toren in a meaningful mystical sense, but probably not in a "can restore the empire as heir" sense.)

Remember that Leanna is heir-conveyant even under Sothoii laws (and that they're the old noble families, "sons of the fathers", and the Bowmasters are very old as a family) and that we by no means know that the Empire of Ottovar was a male-primogeniture system. And it would explain, given the current setup, why Wencit was willing to re-strafe Kontovar if anyone arcanely threatened Leanna.

Based on the Sothoii adherence to tradition, Ottovar may have had a fairly similar inheritance system, at least in the regions where the Sothoii's ancestors came from.

We know next to nothing about the Empire of the Axe's inheritance laws, but they are likely very similar to that of Ottovar as well, though they may well have gotten tweaked to suit Wencit's foreknowledge of whatever is coming.


As far as Gwynna being the Heir of Ottovar ... I suppose that it is possible, but perhaps unlikely - after all the Sothoii are hugely into their bloodlines and heredity, and everything that comes with those topics. I would think that if someone with a known/public bloodline connection to the House of Ottovar were amongst them back in the early days, it probably would have been known. Unless Toren (or someone else from the House of Ottovar) had a child, or perhaps a pregnant wife/fiance/etc, that was somehow hidden (probably with Wencit's involvement).
It's also possible that the requirements to be the Heir of the prophecy do not match the legal requirements of inheritance, and instead follow a different set of rules.

Gwynna definitely has something going on, even ignoring Wencit's threats. She's a super-mage, half-hradani, and has blood from a noble (wizard) house from the days of the Ottovaran Empire from her mother's side. She might have the potential to be a wizard, perhaps a wild wizard, as well. She's certainly unique and special in all sorts of ways.
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Re: Big Spoiler for Sword of the South and a Question
Post by FriarBob   » Sun May 17, 2015 8:32 pm

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Graydon wrote:
thanatos wrote:One thing is made clear though: The Carnadosans believe that they have Herrik's heir on their side (the cat-eyed sorcerer) and thus have the only legitimate claim to the Griffin Throne and that no legitimate heirs exist on Toren's side of the family. Even if Norfressa would prevail, the question of who would rule in Kontovar would remain (which is what the Carnadosans are counting on). But if indeed Kenhodan is Toren's heir or Toren "reborn" somehow, then they're in trouble. They would have to win the fight or at least end it in a draw to stay in power.


I don't think Kenhodan is the heir. I think Gwynna is. I think the granting of favour with the dagger is _literal_ ("you fight in my name"), not a romantic setup. It's the future Empress (who needs to be a wild wizard to do what needs to be done, just like Ottovar had to be) granting their future conquering general their imprinteur. (Kenhodan is probably Toren in a meaningful mystical sense, but probably not in a "can restore the empire as heir" sense.)

Remember that Leanna is heir-conveyant even under Sothoii laws (and that they're the old noble families, "sons of the fathers", and the Bowmasters are very old as a family) and that we by no means know that the Empire of Ottovar was a male-primogeniture system. And it would explain, given the current setup, why Wencit was willing to re-strafe Kontovar if anyone arcanely threatened Leanna.


Well for one, we don't know whether Gwynna is a "wild wizard" or not. Supposedly one could not be a mage and a wizard... at least not previously. But there is this old saw about the exception that proves the rule...

I don't fully agree with Kytheros on his concerns about the heir-conveyance but I don't fully disagree either. I will agree with him that if a known legitimate heir to Torren was to be found among the Sothoii somebody would have known. Wencit would have had to have been involved in deliberately hiding this AND then lied about doing so. I don't think he did.

Unless I'm misremembering and Wencit never actually claimed there wasn't an heir. But I have a hard time buying that he didn't. Kormak at the very least would have wanted to know. Others would have asked. Unless Wencit deftly deflected their questions for several decades -- and somehow nobody noticed him doing so -- then somehow, somewhen the question MUST have been asked.

In another conversation it was suggested that instead the heir in question was illegitimate through Herrick. I don't buy that either:

The only area I will outright disagree with you is that I don't buy Herrick as the ancestor of the Sothoii. Evil he may have been and what's the difference between rapist of a continent and rapist of a woman? Sick bastard either way. But Wencit and Toren (and friends) were fighting a losing rearguard the whole way. When did they have time to rescue even ONE of the unfortunate by-blows? And even if they had time for one, how did they find time for ENOUGH of them to have such a bloodline-density that even now many Sothoii nobles have at least a trace of the gift, and quite a few far more than that? And even if that happened, how did known by-blows (which would have grown up stigmatized as not only bastards but also bastards of the "key enemy") become "popular" enough to marry enough of the survivors that eventually became the Sothoii?

Sorry, don't buy that one. The Sothoii are likely Ottovaran offshoots of some sort. But I very much doubt they're through Herrick. I suspect they're cadet branches of the family instead. Probably very extended cadet branches, second-sons of second-sons and such. But still (distant) bloodline relatives. Not close enough to be considered legitimate heirs to the Ottovaran crown, but close enough to still have heavy traces of the gift...


I also can't agree with your belief that Kenhodan is not the heir... because I think he's not just the heir, he's actually Torren himself. Probably "tossed through time" in some fashion, or perhaps sealed in some sort of "pocket universe" or something else that allowed him to skip over the intervening centuries.

I think it's pretty clear that Kenhodan is Toren. I suppose "reborn" might be technically possible, but I'm leaning strongly towards the original. Not sure exactly how. Perhaps "tossed through time" in some fashion? Or perhaps hidden in a "pocket universe" of some sort where time flows at a different speed? Something obviously pushed him forward in time by a huge amount. And something wiped his memory. My gut feeling/guess is Wencit did both deliberately, but obviously can't prove it.

My reasoning for [both/either] would be that it would have allowed Wencit to both tell the literal truth and badly deceive all in the exact same sentence. By saying "no legitimate heir exists today" he would be telling the literal truth while completely concealing that one would reappear in the future.

[...] He's still Toren. Physically, at least. Just not mentally. But who cares? He's physically still the legitimate heir of Ottovar. He's still a member of the bloodline. Why would any prophecy care that he's no longer himself mentally?


Too bad we have to wait two more years to find out where any of us are right (if we are at all)...
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Re: Big Spoiler for Sword of the South and a Question
Post by PeterZ   » Mon May 18, 2015 3:57 pm

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FriarBob,

Kenhodan carries Torren's memories and personality. Yet is his body that or Torren's? Is that other self Torren also or someone else? A comment Torren made to Wencit suggests that the Kenhodan personality is not identical to Torren's and that Torren wanted that personality to live. I believe Torren used the word "live" to express his wishes. That sounds like two people in one body.

One wonders also how similar the Mage talent and Wild Wizardry are to each other? Are they essentially the same thing with perhaps minor differences? Suppose they are fueled via different mechanisms. Wild Wizardry is fueled using the magic field and Mages use their own life energy....much like blood magic uses the life energy of others. Both after all have the same sort of crisis at the inception of the power's manifestation.

I really can't wait to see how all this turns out.
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Re: Big Spoiler for Sword of the South and a Question
Post by dwileye13   » Tue May 26, 2015 2:44 pm

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Duncan_Macdonald wrote:Very unlikely that the cat eyed wizard is Herrik given the following from Chapter 11.

Quote

For the last hundred years, since the cat-eyed wizard had assumed leadership of the Council, the old wild wizard had been monitored literally hour by hour.

End Quote

If Herrik had still been alive then he would have been the Council leader much earlier than 100 years ago.



In the battle with the demon essence when he defeated it with the Sword, the memory that came forth to Kenhodan (Toren I believe) was 'as his arm slashed sorcerous mail, ribs, lungs. His foe's death scream and the thunder of iron on his helm.' IMHO this was the the end of the Battle of Lost Hope when he was fighting and perhaps killing Herrek.

I think Herrek is dead but his progeny lived on elsewhere. What someone breed with to get the cat's eyes is another story
I am not young enough to know everything!
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Re: Big Spoiler for Sword of the South and a Question
Post by dwileye13   » Tue May 26, 2015 2:52 pm

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Kytheros wrote:

As far as Gwynna being the Heir of Ottovar ... I suppose that it is possible, but perhaps unlikely - after all the Sothoii are hugely into their bloodlines and heredity, and everything that comes with those topics. I would think that if someone with a known/public bloodline connection to the House of Ottovar were amongst them back in the early days, it probably would have been known. Unless Toren (or someone else from the House of Ottovar) had a child, or perhaps a pregnant wife/fiance/etc, that was somehow hidden (probably with Wencit's involvement).
It's also possible that the requirements to be the Heir of the prophecy do not match the legal requirements of inheritance, and instead follow a different set of rules.

Gwynna definitely has something going on, even ignoring Wencit's threats. She's a super-mage, half-hradani, and has blood from a noble (wizard) house from the days of the Ottovaran Empire from her mother's side. She might have the potential to be a wizard, perhaps a wild wizard, as well. She's certainly unique and special in all sorts of ways.


Wencit told Kenhodan " and in your veins flows the blood of Ottovar the Great and Gwynytha the Wise"

David Weber (2015-08-04T04:00:00+00:00). The Sword of the South - eARC (Kindle Location 9393). Baen. Kindle Edition.
I am not young enough to know everything!
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Re: Big Spoiler for Sword of the South and a Question
Post by cralkhi   » Sat Jul 11, 2015 4:18 pm

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DrakBibliophile wrote:Soon they’ll reach out to Norfressa, for I’m an old man, even for a wild wizard, and they know it. My power’s peaked and begun its decline. When they’re certain of that, when they’re confident it’s declined far enough, they’ll strike.


Ah.

This answers my previous question of how it could come to a final confrontation so "soon" - it seemed to me that Wencit's control of the "strafing of Kontovar" spell would prevent a large scale Kontovaran attack on Norfressa until Wencit died.

But if his power declines below the point needed to activate the spell...
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