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Wencit's foreknowledge

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Wencit's foreknowledge
Post by jsburbidge   » Fri Mar 20, 2015 12:58 pm

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Wencit's foreknowledge seems to be of a rather limited sort which is inconsistent with all the explanations which I have seen put forward.

So, for example, he knows where to find Brandark and Bahzell when they are tracking the wizards and assassins who have Zarantha, but doesn't show up earlier to tell Bahzell, Tothas, et al. about Baron Dunsahnta beforehand, saving a good deal of trouble.

He shows up exactly when Varnaythus is about to trigger a magical explosion, and does so by means requiring long preparation, but does not intervene earlier to stop the assault on the hunting lodge, which puts Leeana in danger as well as the Sothoii nobles.

He has to retrieve something from Wulfra at considerable risk instead of just anticipating her finding it in the first place and getting to it before her.

He's aware that he and Kenhodan may be attacked but seems to have no certainty how, exactly.

There are other similar examples.

We've been told that gods foresee only probabilities, although they do so better than wizards or dragons: that precise prediction of the future is impossible. Knowing exactly where to place his little toy to prevent Varnaythus centuries in advance is bizarrely precise.

The idea that he has gone back into his own past has two problems: first, we've been told it can't be done, and second, the first version of himself has to have known (and dealt with, without changing the course of events) exactly the same things his present self does, so it just shifts the same problem to his original self. (If he acts differently at many of these points, many others wouldn't take place in the same way or at all, so his prior self would have had to follow the same path without benefit of foresight.)

Sword Brother suggests that the answer is determinable from something which he conceals via a glamour, which rules out a family of spell-oriented explanations.

The effect is like one of there being certain fixed points in a pattern which he can foresee, but only those points, as though there's a private prophecy Wencit is following - but one which leaves some recognisable mark from outside.
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Re: Wencit's foreknowledge
Post by looksbeforeheleaps   » Fri Mar 20, 2015 10:07 pm

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It seems likely that at some point during The Fall, he received a single very detailed vision of the things he personally needs to do to bring about the victory of the Gods of Light.

If he steps outside the role he has foreseen, there may be others paths to that victory but he will lose his best guide to bringing it about. So, he can plant a karsalhain in the spot where Varnaythus will build his shielded sanctum 700 years later during the events of WMC, but he can't stop Varnaythus during the events of WRO.

With his visions of rescuing Zarantha, he could probably start tacking her movements and that of her enemies and allies and arrange for her original escort to meet her in Riverside and escort her home unharmed, but if he does that, he loses his best chance to befriend Bahzell and Brandark, Bahzell might or might not accept Tomanak's offer, B and B won't become lifelong friends of Zarantha or be named sept to Jahan and all kinds of other things won't happen as Wencit has foreseen them.
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Re: Wencit's foreknowledge
Post by biochem   » Tue Mar 24, 2015 1:34 pm

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Regarding the karsalhain at least, there was some speculation at one point that Wencit may have placed karsalhains at magic "hot spots"(ley line intersections and suchwhat) over the centuries as those would be the places where evil wizards would most likely build their lairs.
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Re: Wencit's foreknowledge
Post by Tail Twitcher   » Fri Jul 31, 2015 4:10 pm

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biochem wrote:Regarding the karsalhain at least, there was some speculation at one point that Wencit may have placed karsalhains at magic "hot spots"(ley line intersections and suchwhat) over the centuries as those would be the places where evil wizards would most likely build their lairs.


This certainly makes sense; it doesn't rely on complicated or convoluted explanations. It seems to be almost Ocam's Razorlike. :)
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Re: Wencit's foreknowledge
Post by SYED   » Sat Aug 01, 2015 12:31 am

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Simply put, he can use his foreknowledge, to prepare fore the situation, but not stop it.
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Re: Wencit's foreknowledge
Post by AClone   » Wed Aug 05, 2015 12:55 pm

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Spoiler!


I couldn't help but notice that in Wencit's explanation, he carefully alluded to recorded instances of wizards traveling through time. Think of the Belhaden chapter's realization that he had never actually lied to them.
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Re: Wencit's foreknowledge
Post by Knightfire   » Wed Aug 05, 2015 10:28 pm

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Your wrong about Wizards being able to go back into the past. Wencit specifically said that it is possible. Just not possible to go into the future.
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Re: Wencit's foreknowledge
Post by Kytheros   » Wed Aug 05, 2015 10:51 pm

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Knightfire wrote:Your wrong about Wizards being able to go back into the past. Wencit specifically said that it is possible. Just not possible to go into the future.

Possible to go into the past ... but then you are also in a different timeline from the one that you left.

This is an analogy that pains me to make: Remember the Star Trek "reboot" by JJ Abrams? It starts in the same timeline as TOS, TNG, DS9, VOY, ENT, and their movies. Then Spock (hereby referred to as OldSpock) winds up going back in time, along with Narada and some Romulans. The Romulans show up first, and things progress differently from that point onwards, though with some similarities. Vulcan ends up destroyed.
Both OldSpock and the Romulans that went back are in a timeline that is not the one they left.
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Re: Wencit's foreknowledge
Post by AClone   » Thu Aug 06, 2015 2:38 pm

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Kytheros wrote:Possible to go into the past ... but then you are also in a different timeline from the one that you left.

This is an analogy that pains me to make: Remember the Star Trek "reboot" by JJ Abrams?
<snip>
Both OldSpock and the Romulans that went back are in a timeline that is not the one they left.

Exactly. And it's possible that Wencit is in a different timeline from one he left--only not extremely different. Which would be another reason he meddles so minimally--to avoid creating a wider divergence, in which things become unpredictable.
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Re: Wencit's foreknowledge
Post by Kytheros   » Thu Aug 06, 2015 8:26 pm

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AClone wrote:
Kytheros wrote:Possible to go into the past ... but then you are also in a different timeline from the one that you left.

This is an analogy that pains me to make: Remember the Star Trek "reboot" by JJ Abrams?
<snip>
Both OldSpock and the Romulans that went back are in a timeline that is not the one they left.

Exactly. And it's possible that Wencit is in a different timeline from one he left--only not extremely different. Which would be another reason he meddles so minimally--to avoid creating a wider divergence, in which things become unpredictable.

There's still the problem of how OldWencit and YoungWencit handle things. The age gap would be sufficient to leave a noticeable difference, so OldWencit and YoungWencit can't simply have swapped places.
Also, the first time Wencit meddled - that is, the first time he changed how something turned out, he would have changed how everything after would happen.


I rather suspect it is far more likely that Wencit got some measure of warning through Selkirk, one or more dragons, or through some sort of major artifact - Or perhaps some sort of combination - rather than having personally gone back in time.


Oooh ... what if he's so protective of Gwynna because she did/will do something to provide him warning/foreknowledge? Mage abilities may interact with Time differently than wizardly abilities, and thus may allow for a predestination paradox in the same timeline (at least, under certain conditions).
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