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SotS Official Snippet #9 (I think )

Fans of Bahzell and Tomenack come on in! Let's talk about David's fantasy series and our favorite hradani!
Re: SotS Official Snippet #9 (I think )
Post by jsburbidge   » Mon Mar 02, 2015 4:32 pm

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Graydon wrote:
jsburbidge wrote:(3) An unrecorded episode of Bahzell and Brandark cooperating years before Bahzell's hostage status, no more than twenty years before the beginning of OoS and more likely about fifteen


I don't think that can work because Bahzell and Brandark are very young, just barely at the age of responsibility, when OoS opens. (If Hradani-equivalent 12 year-olds took a sword off a corsair and got home intact, it would be talked about.)


They were about forty, IIRC, at the beginning of OoS, and Bahzell has already had time to be fairly thoroughly experienced with raids onto the Wind Plain before his father stopped them... so it's not impossible, just somewhat unlikely. Twenty-five year old Hradani might very well be involved in raids as part of youthful hijinks, but that still would need explaining away why this was never mentioned earlier.

I can't see any reason other than toying with us for the second scenario, either. It involves invoking everything you have to invoke for the first scenario, while also requiring some reason that neither of them even mentioned it (say, on departing the ship) at the time, so it gets into significant retcon territory.

The snippet leans pretty heavily on how mature Leeana's affect is compared to her appearance (and there's that rank as well, which she presumably achieved before Gwynna was born); Occam's Razor as applied to indications of authorial intent would suggest that the most likely answer is that she's been given an extended lifespan to match Bahzell's (foreseen by the gods, not necessarily full-length for a Hradani dying in bed) life.
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Re: SotS Official Snippet #9 (I think )
Post by jsburbidge   » Mon Mar 02, 2015 5:40 pm

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Has anybody caught that one of the little details meant to prep for this is the name of Gayrfressa's son, Gayrhodan, "born out of the wind"? (Leading us to the conclusion that ken means "silence").
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Re: SotS Official Snippet #9 (I think )
Post by durban70   » Mon Mar 02, 2015 7:32 pm

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Concerning Kenhodan. Hummmmmmmmmm Very green eyes, very scared on chest., great swordsman. Did anyone check to see if there were jewels on the hilt.
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Re: SotS Official Snippet #9 (I think )
Post by Eagleeye   » Tue Mar 03, 2015 2:01 am

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The 40 years hiccup could be simply that. A hiccup. Maybe he wanted to say 30 (don't forget, David dictates his books into his computer - and the pronunciation of "30" and "40" is relatively similiar ...

And 30 years would make more sense ... how long was it, that Bazell was "honored guest" in Navahk?
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Re: SotS Official Snippet #9 (I think )
Post by Eagleeye   » Tue Mar 03, 2015 2:08 am

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durban70 wrote:Concerning Kenhodan. Hummmmmmmmmm Very green eyes, very scared on chest., great swordsman. Did anyone check to see if there were jewels on the hilt.


If you refer to Vajjon ... don't you think, Bahzell would have recognized him somehow? After all, he's a champion of the God of Truth. And some mannerisms one has acquired are simply ineradicable. So even if it would be Vajjon in a new body (courtesy of the Gods of Light), the core of his personality had to be unchanged, else he would be worthless for the task he has to fulfill.
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Re: SotS Official Snippet #9 (I think )
Post by Sharidann   » Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:06 am

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durban70 wrote:Concerning Kenhodan. Hummmmmmmmmm Very green eyes, very scared on chest., great swordsman. Did anyone check to see if there were jewels on the hilt.


Frankly, if you think it is Vaijon's blade, I am pretty sure Bahzell would have recognized it out of Hand without having to think about it.

He clearly explains where it Comes from and from what I recall from WGO, Vajion's blade was forged for him, gift from his wealthy Family...
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Re: SotS Official Snippet #9 (I think )
Post by HungryKing   » Tue Mar 03, 2015 11:08 am

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People, Bahzell is not saying that he and Brandark gained the sword forty years ago, the phrase is the best part of forty years. Which means, if you want to get very sneaky, and are counting in scores, more than twenty years ago but less then forty. I'd put the upper limit at 35, past that it would probably be coming up on, or well niegh forty. And the lower at twenty two.
If they gained it after OoSs but before TWGO, as I suspect, we are technically looking at a situation where Leeana could legitimately be 34, and Gwynna was conceived the night before the epilogue of WMC.
Bahzell probably figured or just knows that Wencit and or Tomanak or even Isvaria, were playing a deep game placing him or Leeana in a position to help a swordman with no memory, since wencit was not helping him recover his memory, but is protecting him from other wizards, the reason might be that the swordman needs a special blade, they might well be the only people with such a sword in the city who would be willing to part with it.
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Re: SotS Official Snippet #9 (I think )
Post by jsburbidge   » Tue Mar 03, 2015 12:12 pm

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HungryKing wrote:People, Bahzell is not saying that he and Brandark gained the sword forty years ago, the phrase is the best part of forty years. Which means, if you want to get very sneaky, and are counting in scores, more than twenty years ago but less then forty. I'd put the upper limit at 35, past that it would probably be coming up on, or well niegh forty. And the lower at twenty two.
If they gained it after OoSs but before TWGO, as I suspect, we are technically looking at a situation where Leeana could legitimately be 34, and Gwynna was conceived the night before the epilogue of WMC.


The numbers don't work out. "Best part of forty" doesn't imply just over half of forty in normal parlance; at least 35 (counting in scores just might make sense if Bahzell said twoscore, but he didn't). Any shorter, and you'd be approximating to thirty. In addition, Gwynna is eleven (cover copy). Taking 35 as the value rather than 40, the sword would have been acquired 24 years before Gwynna was born, and if the sword's acquisition was at the end of OoS, that birth has to be about fourteen years or a bit more after Bahzell and Leeana were married (it's approximately a ten-year gap or a little less covered by TWGO, WRC, and WMC). That puts Leeana's current age at 25+21 = 46.

A birth just after WMC also gives no time for Leeana to have gone from a commander of 75 to a commander of a thousand.

You still need some form of intervention to explain her relatively youthful appearance. If you're going to need that in any case, then moving the acquisition of the sword to the voyage with the Marfang Islanders isn't the simplest, but the most complicated explanation, as it requires an additional explanation for why it the conflict with the corsairs, or Brandark's acquisition of the sword, was never mentioned. (That's easier to explain away on the basis of youthful hijinks well before the series began -- one of the few points in favour of that explanation; but I think Graydon is broadly right about the other factors militating against that on the balance of probabilities. I'll add that Bahzell's time as a hostage can't have been that long, given his age at the time and the training he had already received as a Horse Stealer.)

My guess, having just reread it, is that Isvaria quietly made an intervention during her meeting with Leeana (where she was, quite literally, god-touched).

The simplest explanation is that this is very much a next generation story (although for Bahzell and Brandark, ninety is just nicely in the prime of life, so they can be expected to be still active) and that the references so far will be reinforced by more complete background filling in shortly. (In a normal read, there'd be a few minutes to get through the first few chapters, not a few weeks, and the experience would be very different.)
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Re: SotS Official Snippet #9 (I think )
Post by HungryKing   » Tue Mar 03, 2015 4:32 pm

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There was a gap between the final chapter of WMC and the epilogue, probably of at least two months, would it be any suprise that Leeana was promoted to Hundred in that time? It was clear that she was already on the verge of it before she turned 22. She takes a staff position when she finds out she is pregnant, and after nine more months returns to full active duty a 300-commander. Takes over a five hundred command when her superior is incapacitated or retires. Transfers to the Sothoii army which is lent to the Axemen as the commander of its War Maids, as the detachment commander, which would be a thousand commander position.
BTW she is at least 34, by my count.

Now then, I freely admit that best part of forty years does seem to imply more than the twenty two to twenty three since OoS that is the minimum value I am figuring.
But what if Weber is being very clever?
What if the forty years is based on a different time marker? Like say, Bahzell has been a warrior for forty years? And he has had the sword for the 'best part' of that time, e.g. since he escaped the purple lords' wrath?
I freely admit that sounds a bit paranoid.
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Re: SotS Official Snippet #9 (I think )
Post by Graydon   » Tue Mar 03, 2015 5:52 pm

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HungryKing wrote:There was a gap between the final chapter of WMC and the epilogue, probably of at least two months, would it be any suprise that Leeana was promoted to Hundred in that time?


Kinda, yes. The War Maids are the sort of organization where you can't get promoted unless someone up the chain of command dies or retires, it's not the modern time limits, up-or-out kind of setup. I take "Commander of a Thousand" to indicate -- where's the War Maid community large enough to _need_ a Commander of a Thousand? -- there was a major war, with combined levies from multiple War Maid communities. I don't think "Commander of a Thousand" was the overal CO of the War Maid contingent, either.

That's not to say I don't think Leanna didn't impress, but I think there might not have been any particular effort to promote or otherwise reward. Leanna (and the King, we know this is a politic king) would have wanted any rewards to be general to the War Maids, and given the unprecedented, eye-widening scale of the divine rewards, it's quite possible the mortal authorities may have concluded that, well, that's taken care of, not our place to medle, oh no it is not.

HungryKing wrote:Now then, I freely admit that best part of forty years does seem to imply more than the twenty two to twenty three since OoS that is the minimum value I am figuring.
But what if Weber is being very clever?
What if the forty years is based on a different time marker? Like say, Bahzell has been a warrior for forty years? And he has had the sword for the 'best part' of that time, e.g. since he escaped the purple lords' wrath?
I freely admit that sounds a bit paranoid.


Weber might be clever, but Bahzell won't be, not given the audience.

Note that the tavern is obviously established, it's not new, it's got a routine and a storage room full of valuable oddments and regulars and local customs and a diverse clientele who don't seem surprised by anything.

What we're seeing is a considerable span of time.
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