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Wencit's destructive spell

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Wencit's destructive spell
Post by cralkhi   » Sat Jan 18, 2014 1:46 am

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So, I just re-read WMC...

Wow, Wencit's spell to blast Kontovar was REALLY scary. It apparently melted mountains and even caused a "Year With No Summer" in Norfressa... that's some pretty impressive power. Like, gigatons scale probably.

But that raises an interesting question. WMC seems to be hinting that the next series will be about Norfressa fighting whatever threat Kontovar's Carnadosan wizards have come up with. But how will that work, when Wencit can just destroy whatever forces they create?

(And I don't think it's even a matter of the collateral damage, as at the very end when he's threatening the Carnadosans, Wencit says that he can blow up just that one city if they go after Leanna, and if they do it again, he'll nuke the continent. So unless he's just bluffing there, he could probably use the spell to blow up an army without doing massive collateral damage.)
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Re: Wencit's destructive spell
Post by Lunan   » Sat Jan 18, 2014 11:22 pm

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if wencit goes nuclear he will kill many innocents. he threatened to burn himself out. he may not actully be able to use those spells again without burning himself out. and gods only know what is being made in kontovar.
plus. if he uses his spell its possible the dark would win(think about it)

cralkhi wrote:So, I just re-read WMC...

Wow, Wencit's spell to blast Kontovar was REALLY scary. It apparently melted mountains and even caused a "Year With No Summer" in Norfressa... that's some pretty impressive power. Like, gigatons scale probably.

But that raises an interesting question. WMC seems to be hinting that the next series will be about Norfressa fighting whatever threat Kontovar's Carnadosan wizards have come up with. But how will that work, when Wencit can just destroy whatever forces they create?

(And I don't think it's even a matter of the collateral damage, as at the very end when he's threatening the Carnadosans, Wencit says that he can blow up just that one city if they go after Leanna, and if they do it again, he'll nuke the continent. So unless he's just bluffing there, he could probably use the spell to blow up an army without doing massive collateral damage.)
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Re: Wencit's destructive spell
Post by cralkhi   » Sun Jan 19, 2014 6:59 pm

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Lunan wrote:if wencit goes nuclear he will kill many innocents.


Only if he can't control the spell, and it sort of implies he can.

I agree he can't destroy, say, a city in Kontovar without catching innocents in the blast. But an invasion force leaving Kontovar's ports, or an army being assembled... might be a different matter.

he threatened to burn himself out. he may not actully be able to use those spells again without burning himself out.


From what he said, that would only happen if he did the biggest version. He could blow up a city without it, and that would probably be sufficient to destroy an army in the field or a fleet of ships.


plus. if he uses his spell its possible the dark would win(think about it)


Why would destroying a Dark army/fleet help them win? I can see if he nuked a city full of innocents, but I wasn't suggesting that.
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Re: Wencit's destructive spell
Post by boballab   » Fri Feb 07, 2014 4:42 pm

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If you haven't yet read this infodump:
http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/en ... essa/226/1

1. You keep assuming that Wencit can downsize the spell and/or move it around to different areas when there is no evidence for that. Have you thought that the spells are tied to specific locations like the object he had buried 700 years ago? Remember that the Dark Wizards were about to kill everyone at the lodge with a spell similar to what Wencit used on Kontovar and they could only do it through their buried object. Matter of fact that is specifically mentioned in WMC:
The kairsalhain Varnaythus had carefully planted under the hearth in the main lodge was undoubtedly buried under collapsed, charred timbers and masonry, but the most intense mortal fire would scarcely affect the stone. It was formed of the same crystal as his gramerhain, fused in the heart of a working beside which the most powerful lightning bolt was but a weak and pallid thing. And, like his gramerhain, it had come from the working with an affinity for the art. It was sensitized, attuned to the art—no larger than a child’s thumb, yet capable of focusing and storing workings that could have destroyed a city the size of Trōfrōlantha itself. Yet that was only one of its possible functions. Kairsalhains could be—and often were—used as repositories for such spells, as well as . . . more subtle ones, but they could also be used as beacons, anchors, or keys.

...

He had only to speak the word of command here in his working chamber, and hundreds of leagues away that stone would awaken in a blast of heat and fury like the very kiss of Carnadosa. The crater would be almost a mile across. The forest around the lodge would be flattened, splintered, turned into a roaring inferno that burned for days. And Markhos and Tellian and Arm Shahana and Leeana Hanathafressa would be wiped from the surface of the earth as if they had never existed.


Also the only time a "spell" was used to wipe out a Dark Army it wasn't Wencit using the strafing spells that did that but the Ottovar King using either the Sword of the South or the Harp of Chesmira:
In the event, the battle between them -- which involved another artifact of the House of Ottovar [tum, te, tum, te, tum] -- not only dropped both of them but killed almost every man (and creature) of the army Herrick had brought to the ball, as well. Unfortunately, the Carnadosans still had several armies left, and Toren's had been the last army the Good Guys™ had.

So, after the last battle, Wencit -- as he and Toren had already discussed -- strafed Kontovar.


2. Even with the Strafing it didn't kill everyone on that continent and the Dark had been winning the fight on Orfressa until the time of Bazhell, so strafing the other continent is no "I Win" button.

3. It is plainly stated in WMC that for Wencit to actually scour every inch of the Kontovaran continent he would burn himself out. That means the first time he didn't hit every single area so not everything was killed over there and we know this from the simple fact he didn't burn himself out.

4. Wencit now has the Sword of the South in his possession which he may not have had the last time he used the spells so we do not what if any affect that will have.

cralkhi wrote:Only if he can't control the spell, and it sort of implies he can.

I agree he can't destroy, say, a city in Kontovar without catching innocents in the blast. But an invasion force leaving Kontovar's ports, or an army being assembled... might be a different matter.


From what he said, that would only happen if he did the biggest version. He could blow up a city without it, and that would probably be sufficient to destroy an army in the field or a fleet of ships.


Why would destroying a Dark army/fleet help them win? I can see if he nuked a city full of innocents, but I wasn't suggesting that.
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Re: Wencit's destructive spell
Post by Polyglot   » Thu Feb 13, 2014 6:50 pm

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cralkhi wrote:So, I just re-read WMC...

Wow, Wencit's spell to blast Kontovar was REALLY scary. It apparently melted mountains and even caused a "Year With No Summer" in Norfressa... that's some pretty impressive power. Like, gigatons scale probably.




RFC is much, much too well-versed in the history of 20th-century conflict to fall in to the trap of "we win because we've got the [machine gun/ dreadnaught/ A-bomb/ H-bomb/ WMD's]"- take your pick, but it never works, at least not on all fronts and not permanently. I don't rightly know what to expect from the coming conflagration, other than a good story, and Wencit with a "magic button of instant and total destruction" which he feels free to use with impunity has no place in a good story!
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Re: Wencit's destructive spell
Post by cralkhi   » Wed Feb 19, 2014 11:02 pm

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boballab wrote:If you haven't yet read this infodump:
http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/en ... essa/226/1

1. You keep assuming that Wencit can downsize the spell and/or move it around to different areas when there is no evidence for that.


Well, he threatens to hit a specific city, so he can certainly downsize it beyond "whole continent", unless he's all-out lying.

Now maybe he has a karsalhain under that specific city... but wouldn't the Carnadosans have been able to find ones he left behind in Kontovar in 1200 years? Especially as Carnadosa apparently actually gives them orders, so she does communicate with them.


2. Even with the Strafing it didn't kill everyone on that continent and the Dark had been winning the fight on Orfressa until the time of Bazhell, so strafing the other continent is no "I Win" button.

3. It is plainly stated in WMC that for Wencit to actually scour every inch of the Kontovaran continent he would burn himself out. That means the first time he didn't hit every single area so not everything was killed over there and we know this from the simple fact he didn't burn himself out.


Some survived because they had the effective equivalent of bomb shelters, I think. An army in the field or a fleet crossing the sea between Kontovar and Norfressa would be far more vulnerable. I'm not suggesting nuking the whole continent ... that would kill a lot of innocents e.g. the bad guys' slaves ... but I don't see how an actual force could act against Norfressa, an ocean away, without assembling and making itself vulnerable.


Polyglot wrote:I don't rightly know what to expect from the coming conflagration, other than a good story, and Wencit with a "magic button of instant and total destruction" which he feels free to use with impunity has no place in a good story!


Well, no, I get that. But I'm wondering what the Kontovarans DO have to counter it... because, as you say, there must be something.

This isn't even like Nimue/Merlin not openly using advanced tech on Safehold; unlike the Safehold situation, the existence of the capability is already revealed, and Wencit has already proven himself willing to do it in a sufficiently dire situation. So why wouldn't he do so again if the fate of the world is similarly threatened?


EDIT: That is, it seems to me that Wencit's ability to do that will limit the stakes of the next conflict -- because if the stakes are big enough to drive Wencit to use that ability, the bad guys lose. Yet it seems like the next conflict is being set up to decide the fate of the world. That's what I'm wondering about...

Maybe the Kontovarans have teleportation abilities or something, so they don't actually have to assemble an army/fleet as one big vulnerable target? Or they'll attack by sneaking in small groups which then summon demons and devils as the real attack force?

EDIT: Or maybe they actually have developed, with 1200 years of research and possibly Carnadosa's help, a way to counter/block Wencit's spell -- and he's just being overconfident in assuming it will still work if he needs it?
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Re: Wencit's destructive spell
Post by Polyglot   » Sat Feb 22, 2014 6:07 am

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cralkhi wrote:

Polyglot wrote:I don't rightly know what to expect from the coming conflagration, other than a good story, and Wencit with a "magic button of instant and total destruction" which he feels free to use with impunity has no place in a good story!


Well, no, I get that. But I'm wondering what the Kontovarans DO have to counter it... because, as you say, there must be something.


***
Excellent point- there will have to be some sort of balance in the conflict, or it won't be much of a *conflict*...

Wencit warned them off attacking Leeana directly through magical means, but as someone elsewhere on the forum pointed out, he didn't rule out non-magical attacks. He also didn't explicitly forbid the manipulation/mind control of people near her, which the servants of the dark are willing and able to use, so that's another possible threat.
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Re: Wencit's destructive spell
Post by tootall   » Wed Mar 12, 2014 3:29 pm

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Seems to me- that Wencit would be the guy to take out Demons and Devils. But he hasn't - conveniently, he's been taking care of opposing Wizards.

Perhaps, that's a clue to who he really is.
Perhaps, if he fought those demons and devils- the Dark would figure out what's going on.
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Re: Wencit's destructive spell
Post by cralkhi   » Thu Mar 13, 2014 8:24 pm

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tootall wrote:Seems to me- that Wencit would be the guy to take out Demons and Devils. But he hasn't - conveniently, he's been taking care of opposing Wizards.

Perhaps, that's a clue to who he really is.
Perhaps, if he fought those demons and devils- the Dark would figure out what's going on.


Maybe.

But I'm not sure. Wencit is incredibly powerful, sure. He defeats dark wizards without even seeming to need to make an effort.

But the "continent wrecking" spell doesn't seem to be drawn directly from his own power - it's said that it took the whole Council of Ottovar (or at least most of it, can't remember the exact wording) to set it up and most of them died in the process. It's still "around", and he can still use it, but I don't think it's all him. Otherwise he could have done it in the first place without all the other good wizards dying.

So I don't think we can necessarily take it for granted that he can easily annihilate demons and devils.

I think demons -- and certainly devils from WMC -- are more like champions of the dark gods. So they can probably draw on essentially unlimited energy just like Wencit -- it's stated that a wild wizard could theoretically draw as much energy as he wanted, even from the entire universe, but they're actually limited by what their body can survive. Which seems pretty similar to the situation of champions -- the gods are powerful enough to destroy whole universes, but only so much can be channeled through a mortal champion.

So I dunno if Wencit would be any better at taking down a demon than Bahzell. In fact, quite possibly less so, since if the "power vs power" cancels out and it comes down to a physical fight, Bahzell would be a lot better at that.
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Re: Wencit's destructive spell
Post by tootall   » Fri Mar 14, 2014 3:32 pm

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But the "continent wrecking" spell doesn't seem to be drawn directly from his own power - it's said that it took the whole Council of Ottovar (or at least most of it, can't remember the exact wording) to set it up and most of them died in the process. It's still "around", and he can still use it, but I don't think it's all him. Otherwise he could have done it in the first place without all the other good wizards dying.

Always wondered about that particular bit.

My point about devils and demons- is that- he always seems to be elsewhere. So we don't know why he doesn't deal with demons and devils....

RFC points out that the Wand wizard's spell might have been powerful enough to send the BIG devil back to his own universe- and as you point out- it was harmless to Wencit. So it seems to me power is not an issue.

Just sayin' it's a mystery.
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