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Leeana a Wizard?

Fans of Bahzell and Tomenack come on in! Let's talk about David's fantasy series and our favorite hradani!
Re: Leeana a Wizard?
Post by Polyglot   » Thu Feb 13, 2014 7:12 pm

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[quote="PeterZ"]

As for Leeana, I doubt she will be a Champion. VWencit's other hints suggest that she will be the respresentative of the War Maids in the Kings Council. I doubt she can do that and be a Champion. Odds are she will be central to creating a parlimentary system for the Sothoii.

The legal aspects of her marrying Bahzell is interesting. The marriage was performed by 2 gods. How will that influence how the children of war maid marriages will be treated by Sothoii law? Will the desires of the parents supercede mainstream Sothoii custom? Will the child be allowed to choose at some point? Will Sothoii law change to provide some of the protections war maid society provides?[quote="PeterZ"]


I really don't think the marriage being performed by gods is going to affect the legal standing that much, but it certainly affects the social acceptability of it, at least in some quarters. However, the legal status of the child(ren) I am confident they are (or shortly will be) expecting may become an issue.

While Leeana is no longer heir to the house of Bowmaster, her children are not legally precluded from being Tellian's grandchildren. It seems to me that until Trianal and Sharlassa have children of their own, any children of Leeana and Bahzell would be next in line for the barony.

Two problems seem immediate:
1) as much political capital as they have gained by the events at Chergor and on the Goul Moor, I don't see the Sothoii accepting half-hradani offspring as heirs to one of the four baronies.
2) Offspring with lifespans of multiple centuries yet who are incapable of reproducing are not exactly the best vehicles for a stable government based on inherited power.
So, whether the new Parliament clarifies the legal status of War Maid children or not, (and I do think Leeana will be the War Maid representative; she's the obvious choice) Leeana and Bahzell's children will pose a thorny problem for Sothoii society by virtue of their very existence.
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Re: Leeana a Wizard?
Post by james99   » Sat Nov 15, 2014 10:14 am

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I suspect if Leeana has children they won't be wizards, maybe magi.
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Re: Leeana a Wizard?
Post by feyhunde   » Wed Nov 19, 2014 12:48 am

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Polyglot wrote:
While Leeana is no longer heir to the house of Bowmaster, her children are not legally precluded from being Tellian's grandchildren. It seems to me that until Trianal and Sharlassa have children of their own, any children of Leeana and Bahzell would be next in line for the barony.



Depends on how the inheritance works.

Sigh. Lawyer here.

Ok so this is more historical , as this is hard to do today, but disinheritance can work one of two ways depending on how it's written.

One, the day they are disinherited, they are considered dead, and their share of an inheritance is figured as of the date of disinheritance. So If M disinherits D in 1990, D has a kid G in 2000, and M dies in 2014, G was never in the line of inheritance. Everything goes to the brother S, the only other child.

Two, it's considered on the day of the testator's death. So If M disinherits D in 1990, D has a kid G in 2000, and M dies in 2014, the inheritance D would of gotten, skips D and goes to G.

As for Wizardry, Leeana is a noble of the Sothoii, descended from nobility of Ottovar, whose titles usually started with a wizard.
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Re: Leeana a Wizard?
Post by fallsfromtrees   » Wed Nov 19, 2014 10:30 am

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feyhunde wrote:
Polyglot wrote:
While Leeana is no longer heir to the house of Bowmaster, her children are not legally precluded from being Tellian's grandchildren. It seems to me that until Trianal and Sharlassa have children of their own, any children of Leeana and Bahzell would be next in line for the barony.



Depends on how the inheritance works.

Sigh. Lawyer here.

Ok so this is more historical , as this is hard to do today, but disinheritance can work one of two ways depending on how it's written.

One, the day they are disinherited, they are considered dead, and their share of an inheritance is figured as of the date of disinheritance. So If M disinherits D in 1990, D has a kid G in 2000, and M dies in 2014, G was never in the line of inheritance. Everything goes to the brother S, the only other child.

Two, it's considered on the day of the testator's death. So If M disinherits D in 1990, D has a kid G in 2000, and M dies in 2014, the inheritance D would of gotten, skips D and goes to G.

As for Wizardry, Leeana is a noble of the Sothoii, descended from nobility of Ottovar, whose titles usually started with a wizard.


Agree, and my impression from the books (I don't recall any textev) is that the first intrepretion is the one that applies to War Maids - they are totally divorced from their previous lives. Actually, this interpretation makes sense, since the reason Leanna ran away was that she could never be the heir - she was the heir conveyant, and interpretation 2 would still leave her as heir conveyant, with all of the problems that that entailed, ans that she ran to the War Maids to escape.
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Re: Leeana a Wizard?
Post by Charles83   » Thu Nov 20, 2014 6:25 pm

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Feyhunde, with a lot of respect to you and you being a lawyer, this is the middle ages, and not exactly our middle ages but kind of special-dungeons-and-dragons-david-weber's-version middle ages, the issue of leanna is more complicated than at the beginning.

First when leanna joins the warmaids under the old tradition she is considered fully and totally cut off from the mainstream sothoii society, she doesnt have access to any of the social conventions of sothoii society, in other words no marriage is possible under traditional law, no inheritance, and a bunch of other road blocks like no social interactions between that person and their relatives, war maids had their own charters ad they were accepted by the sothoii king as a special group on their society.

But leanna marriage throw this out of the window completelly, the charter pretty much said that war maids could not marry under sothoii rules (or at least it is very heavily implied that way) but now the gods come down and do a full marriage of leanna and bahzell, in other words giving them for all intents and purposes the same right as any other traditional citizen of the sothoii kingdom, and social rules and saying the government makes the rules, remember that in this universe kingdom rules and laws are superseded by the gods, when people do marry in this universe it is an oath to an entity that can manifest on the flesh and punish you for a broken oath (if they do it or not is not the issue), the sothoii though that the war maids were so unnatural that they didn't want to let them have the social recognition and rules of a formal marriage because they thought the gods would be angry at them for letting a being so unnatural as a war maid to get married (deep inbred conservatism of the worst kind), but this time the gods came and did an official marriage with divine tokens to demonstrate their authenticity.

In other words this will make an upheaval on sothoii society because it actually implies that war maids are and will always be sothoii themselves and that they need to be more accepted by the kingdom, other social issues may be difficult, remember that if a woman reached the war maids she could cut all connections to family making her independant, and that was a good way of saving women who were in abusive relationships, they only needed to escape and sign as a war maid and they could cut connections with the abusive husband-patriarch-etc who was abusing them, now with this kind of new recognition by the gods that war maids are part of sothoii society and that they deserve the same rights as others (remember the war maids had responsibilities to the sothoii kingdom but not all the rights of sothoii citizens) sothoii society will have upheavals, daughters who joined the war maids to escape an abusive husband but that they still keep in touch with their father, or other relatives etc etc.

The issue of inheritance is actually the easiest to resolve, you said that any warmaid just go to the bottom of the pile in the ingheritance list, like with leanna, before joining she was the main heir, after joining her father choose his nephew (i think it was nephew) to be his heir, and leanna after what the gods did will be the heir only if the new heir dies and he doesn't have any offspring to take the title, in other words by joining the war maids she end up becoming for all legal purposes the youngest child and that will only inherit in extremis, if she has kids with bahzell probably they will inherit only if all the other who have a right to inherit first are dead.

Again remember this is medieval society style with some quirks.
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Re: Leeana a Wizard?
Post by fallsfromtrees   » Thu Nov 20, 2014 7:52 pm

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Charles83 wrote:Feyhunde, with a lot of respect to you and you being a lawyer, this is the middle ages, and not exactly our middle ages but kind of special-dungeons-and-dragons-david-weber's-version middle ages, the issue of leanna is more complicated than at the beginning.

First when leanna joins the warmaids under the old tradition she is considered fully and totally cut off from the mainstream sothoii society, she doesnt have access to any of the social conventions of sothoii society, in other words no marriage is possible under traditional law, no inheritance, and a bunch of other road blocks like no social interactions between that person and their relatives, war maids had their own charters ad they were accepted by the sothoii king as a special group on their society.

But leanna marriage throw this out of the window completelly, the charter pretty much said that war maids could not marry under sothoii rules (or at least it is very heavily implied that way) but now the gods come down and do a full marriage of leanna and bahzell, in other words giving them for all intents and purposes the same right as any other traditional citizen of the sothoii kingdom, and social rules and saying the government makes the rules, remember that in this universe kingdom rules and laws are superseded by the gods, when people do marry in this universe it is an oath to an entity that can manifest on the flesh and punish you for a broken oath (if they do it or not is not the issue), the sothoii though that the war maids were so unnatural that they didn't want to let them have the social recognition and rules of a formal marriage because they thought the gods would be angry at them for letting a being so unnatural as a war maid to get married (deep inbred conservatism of the worst kind), but this time the gods came and did an official marriage with divine tokens to demonstrate their authenticity.

In other words this will make an upheaval on sothoii society because it actually implies that war maids are and will always be sothoii themselves and that they need to be more accepted by the kingdom, other social issues may be difficult, remember that if a woman reached the war maids she could cut all connections to family making her independant, and that was a good way of saving women who were in abusive relationships, they only needed to escape and sign as a war maid and they could cut connections with the abusive husband-patriarch-etc who was abusing them, now with this kind of new recognition by the gods that war maids are part of sothoii society and that they deserve the same rights as others (remember the war maids had responsibilities to the sothoii kingdom but not all the rights of sothoii citizens) sothoii society will have upheavals, daughters who joined the war maids to escape an abusive husband but that they still keep in touch with their father, or other relatives etc etc.

The issue of inheritance is actually the easiest to resolve, you said that any warmaid just go to the bottom of the pile in the ingheritance list, like with leanna, before joining she was the main heir, after joining her father choose his nephew (i think it was nephew) to be his heir, and leanna after what the gods did will be the heir only if the new heir dies and he doesn't have any offspring to take the title, in other words by joining the war maids she end up becoming for all legal purposes the youngest child and that will only inherit in extremis, if she has kids with bahzell probably they will inherit only if all the other who have a right to inherit first are dead.

Again remember this is medieval society style with some quirks.

I think you are reading too much into it. The general sothoii attitude is going to be "The gods married them, it's a special case, the old rules still apply - war maids are cut off from the rest of society. In part because any other interpretation has the potential to upset a whole lot of the status quo - in terms of who inherited what because someone ran off to be a war maid.
Not going to happen, at least retroactively, and probably not at all.
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Re: Leeana a Wizard?
Post by Charles83   » Fri Nov 21, 2014 12:39 am

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fallsfromtrees wrote:
I think you are reading too much into it. The general sothoii attitude is going to be "The gods married them, it's a special case, the old rules still apply - war maids are cut off from the rest of society. In part because any other interpretation has the potential to upset a whole lot of the status quo - in terms of who inherited what because someone ran off to be a war maid.
Not going to happen, at least retroactively, and probably not at all.


I would agree with you if leanna wedding was the only thing that sothoii society needed to deal with.

Look at the book, leanna wedding follow by leanna being choosen as a Wind Rider followed by the treason of one of the biggest conservatives in the kingdom and the king saved by the war maids, followed by the battle at the ghoul moor, and during the post celebration one of those same conservatives (trisu if my memory remembers) insist that the war maids need to be recognized by all the sothoii society for saving them and beats another of those conservatives unconscious.

As I said if it was 1 thing I would agree with you in a nanosecond, but it is a lot more than 1 thing only.

Edit: oh and I forgot in the epilogue of the last book it pretty much said that if the dark gods wanted to keep sothoii and hradani apart them faster than anything else the sothoii would band together with the hradani, the only thing they needed was proof of the dark gods meddling, and the battle of ghoul moor gave them that proof (at last to a great part of their society, possible enough to make the changes quite widespread) another thing I forgot was the other conservative noble, the one in the north who ended with one of his best vassals affected by sorcery used by minions of the dark gods and that when his best friend who is a servant of the king tried to warn the king ended up wounded and the king was attached by the other noble.

I know I'm possibly forgetting a lot of other stuff, but at the epilogue david weber write quite explicitly that there has been more than enough shocks and the news has spreaded widely enough that sothoii society is taking this time of change seriously, so it is highly unlikelly that they would think of the wedding as just "A special exception"
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Re: Leeana a Wizard?
Post by fallsfromtrees   » Sun Nov 23, 2014 4:19 pm

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Charles83 wrote:
fallsfromtrees wrote:
I think you are reading too much into it. The general sothoii attitude is going to be "The gods married them, it's a special case, the old rules still apply - war maids are cut off from the rest of society. In part because any other interpretation has the potential to upset a whole lot of the status quo - in terms of who inherited what because someone ran off to be a war maid.
Not going to happen, at least retroactively, and probably not at all.


I would agree with you if leanna wedding was the only thing that sothoii society needed to deal with.

Look at the book, leanna wedding follow by leanna being choosen as a Wind Rider followed by the treason of one of the biggest conservatives in the kingdom and the king saved by the war maids, followed by the battle at the ghoul moor, and during the post celebration one of those same conservatives (trisu if my memory remembers) insist that the war maids need to be recognized by all the sothoii society for saving them and beats another of those conservatives unconscious.

As I said if it was 1 thing I would agree with you in a nanosecond, but it is a lot more than 1 thing only.

Edit: oh and I forgot in the epilogue of the last book it pretty much said that if the dark gods wanted to keep sothoii and hradani apart them faster than anything else the sothoii would band together with the hradani, the only thing they needed was proof of the dark gods meddling, and the battle of ghoul moor gave them that proof (at last to a great part of their society, possible enough to make the changes quite widespread) another thing I forgot was the other conservative noble, the one in the north who ended with one of his best vassals affected by sorcery used by minions of the dark gods and that when his best friend who is a servant of the king tried to warn the king ended up wounded and the king was attached by the other noble.

I know I'm possibly forgetting a lot of other stuff, but at the epilogue david weber write quite explicitly that there has been more than enough shocks and the news has spreaded widely enough that sothoii society is taking this time of change seriously, so it is highly unlikelly that they would think of the wedding as just "A special exception"

You are quite correct that there have been vast changes in the societal landscape by the end of WMC. I think you are underestimating the ability of the Sothoii to compartmentalize the various aspects, and having had the gods do the wedding, enables them to do so - at least with respect to the wedding it self "The gods did it so there's no need for us to worry about it, doesn't affect anything else". In particular, they will not be setting aside the restrictions on War Maids having forgone all formal family ties, since to do so could mean a major upheaval in the areas of inheritance, and that is going directly to the bottom line which is what will concern most Sothoii.
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Re: Leeana a Wizard?
Post by Charles83   » Sun Nov 23, 2014 5:46 pm

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fallsfromtrees wrote:You are quite correct that there have been vast changes in the societal landscape by the end of WMC. I think you are underestimating the ability of the Sothoii to compartmentalize the various aspects, and having had the gods do the wedding, enables them to do so - at least with respect to the wedding it self "The gods did it so there's no need for us to worry about it, doesn't affect anything else". In particular, they will not be setting aside the restrictions on War Maids having forgone all formal family ties, since to do so could mean a major upheaval in the areas of inheritance, and that is going directly to the bottom line which is what will concern most Sothoii.


Not really, read the book again, Leanna is the first Noble girl who has gone to the war maids, the inheritance issue was never before defined because pretty much all the girl that ended up going to the warmaids were commoners, so what major upheaval are you talking about?

in certain ways you need to read books 3 and 4 (Wind Rider's Oath and War Maid's Choice) to see if it is really that big of a change, my memory tells me that the inheritance has never been defined before so I don't really see what upheaval you are trying to refer here, still I will read again those 2 books to try and see if you are right.
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Re: Leeana a Wizard?
Post by looksbeforeheleaps   » Tue Feb 17, 2015 5:16 am

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Charles83 wrote:Not really, read the book again, Leanna is the first Noble girl who has gone to the war maids, the inheritance issue was never before defined because pretty much all the girl that ended up going to the warmaids were commoners, so what major upheaval are you talking about?

in certain ways you need to read books 3 and 4 (Wind Rider's Oath and War Maid's Choice) to see if it is really that big of a change, my memory tells me that the inheritance has never been defined before so I don't really see what upheaval you are trying to refer here, still I will read again those 2 books to try and see if you are right.

Charles is correct. Specifically, in Chapter 9 of Wind Rinder's Oath, we have the following conversation:

"There's always been some question as to whether or not the war maids' charter automatically extends to their male children," Brandark explained. "Or, for that matter, to their female children, in the eyes of some of the true reactionaries. When a woman chooses to become a war maid, her familial duties and inheritance obligations are legally severed. Even your true sticks-in-the-mud have been forced to admit that. But a fair number of nobles continue to assert that the legal severance applies only to her—that whatever line of inheritance or obligation would have passed through her to her children is unimpaired. For the most part, the courts haven't agreed with that view, but enough have to mean it's still something of a gray area. I suppose it's fortunate most 'first-generation' war maids come from commoner stock, or at most from the minor nobility—the squirearchy, you might call them. Or maybe it isn't. If the higher nobility had been forced to come to grips with the question, the Crown Courts would have been driven to make a definitive ruling on the disputed points years ago.
"At any rate, the exact question of the legal status of war maids' children is still up in the air, at least to some extent...."


On the other hand, almost as soon as he got back from chasing Leanna to Kalatha, Baron Tellian started the process of formally adopting his nephew Trianal as his heir. That adoption is several years old by the time Leanna and Bahzell marry. So it is unlikely anyone is going to revisit her chil's (or childrens') right to inherit unless Trianal dies before he has sired any heirs.
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