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Spoilers: After WMC's epilogue

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Re: Spoilers: After WMC's epilogue
Post by Brom O'Berin   » Fri Jul 27, 2012 6:22 pm

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In our past, what would normally happen in a civil insurrection is that somehow one or more members of a noble family could be found on each side. This allowed the titles and land to remain in the family, no matter which side came out the victor. Because of the support provided by the "winning" family member, the losing family members would almost always be allowed to live, and swear allegiance to the new ruler, instead of losing their heads.

Cassan may have kept his children from knowing everything he did, but they had to be aware of his opposition to the Crown plans and also that Cassan would be working to somehow nullify or midigate the results toward something more to his liking. They definitely were not opposing their father nor supporting the Crown policies.

I disagree that precedent is for the son gaining the Barony. As shown, Sothoi history seems to be against it.

Tellian bounced the March Warden (Red-somthing) who tried to start the war with Hurgrum. He had not tried to assassinate Tellian, nor would his acts be considered treason against the Crown. They merely went against Tellian's policies - which was enough to allow his Lord Baron to remove him and give his lands to a more loyal vassal. He was not married, and I don't recall any siblings.

I believe Golden Vale had a family, but his actions in attacking Fermian resulted in his family being attainted (and Cassan also losing those lands and taxes to Tellian). Vale's acts were against the King's laws, but not even close to the level of Cassan's crimes.

Cassan's acts (treason, conspiracy against the Crown, attempted regicide, and knowingly consorting with wizards and other followers of the Dark Gods, etc.) were at the highest/most serious level, of such nature that the only penalty allowed was death, and were made worse by his being one of the four great nobles of the nation. With all the evidence that the Dark Gods are meddling in Sothoi, the King can not allow South Riding to be held by someone he can't trust. I would not be surprised if he gives it to his younger brother. Heh, he would probably do just to tie his brother down with responsibilities and problems ...

FriarBob wrote:
Valentinian wrote:In OUR reality's history (European history, mind you), the family of a treacherous noble as often as not lost the right to inherit his title & holdings. It all depended on how loyal his vassals were to his house, and whether they were more loyal to his house than to the royal house...


Oh yeah, I agree that it would be the logical response from our history. For that matter, it's what I'd want to do in Markhos' shoes as well. But the precedent in the series seems to look like it might be hard to strip the son of his title and avoid a civil war.
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Re: Spoilers: After WMC's epilogue
Post by FriarBob   » Sat Jul 28, 2012 11:00 pm

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I see where you are going with things, but I can't agree with you about the precedent bit. Those were the only two such incidents that we know about in the entire history of the Sothoii kingdom. Were there more? Maybe. But we don't know that.

And outside of the dark wizardry, nothing that either Lord Warden did was that much less than what Cassan himself did. Both of their actions were treason, in fact that was the reason they were able to be removed at all. Furthermore, Tellian was not able to just remove Redhelm, he had to ask the King for permission and provide justification and proof, and even then it was apparently a close fight in the Great Council. So it wasn't on some sort of whim of Tellian's or Markhos' that these men were replaced. But all three men were traitors. The only real differences were the dark wizardry and the direct attempt on Markhos' life.

In the first incident you reference, Sir Festian Wrathson being made Lord Warden of Glanharrow in replacement of Mathian Redhelm, we know that the vast majority of his people were delighted by the change because of three reasons: 1) one of their own was promoted into the vacancy, 2) the majority of the people there were also personally loyal to Baron Tellian and weren't asked to change their loyalty to, say, Cassan or Yeraghor, and 3) the vast majority agreed with Tellian's judgement that Redhelm was a hot-headed arrogant young idiot who deserved his punishment.

The first one is unlikely to apply in any potential replacement of Cassan's son. Even if one of the minor or major Lords Warding is promoted into the vacancy, there is at least a strong possibility many of the rest would say "why him instead of me?" The vast majority of them probably are loyal to the King, so part 2 may apply, but we don't know that for sure. And part 3 should apply now that dark wizardry was proven to be involved... but we don't know that for sure.

As for the other replacement, the exact opposite was portrayed. His knights, armsmen, and other subjects were all portrayed as sullen, resentful, grudgingly giving their obedience to their new Lord Warden but without ANY loyalty to him whatsoever. Nor did they have any loyalty to Baron Tellian either to mitigate this, and in fact the exact opposite was true because they saw their new Lord Warden as a creature of their new Baron whom they also resented and disliked, because he wasn't truly "their" Baron in their hearts (yet, at least). Now perhaps I misread that. Or perhaps over time that has changed (or will soon, again wizardry could be a huge trump card here). But that was the impression I got of this set of precedent, that it was tolerated, and only barely. Now none of them took up arms against their new lord warding (at least not on camera) but you can all-but-guarantee some of them at least considered it. And he was just a minor lord warding. Most likely many (or even all) of those who refrained did so not because they were convinced the new guy was a better ruler (he was and they weren't, or at least aren't yet). Most likely they refrained only because they knew they had absolutely no chance of success. Either that or they refrained only because they refused to disobey the King, no matter how much they hated his decision. Either way, this is not good precedent in your favor.

Now we're talking about a Baron, one of the five most important people in the kingdom, who had a significantly higher degree of loyalty and at least the partially-informed consent of at least some of his subordinate lords who owed him fealty, who in turn will have loyalty from their warders who they can command to fight for them as well. They too might choose not to fight for many reasons. They could recognize that they would be ultimately doomed to lose and grumble but back down. They could recognize that they would be giving the dark exactly what it wanted and refuse out of spite. And they could refuse because they were so horrified by the fact that Cassan was mixing in with dark wizardry that they universally turned on him. And finally they could have such a degree of loyalty to the King that even though they might grumble and gripe about it for years or even decades, they might accept the decision anyway.

If ANY of those last four are true, then yes his son could be replaced. For that matter, if either of the middle two are true about his son, then he wouldn't even need to be replaced. But are they true? I don't know.

I do have to admit I could easily see a disagreement between the two sons on just how far they would be willing to go to repudiate their father's sins. Possibly the younger -- i.e. the one far less fully brought into Cassan's line of thinking because Cassan never expected him to become his heir -- might react far more strongly against what his father did. In such a case I could see the King making him Baron instead of his older brother. And what would happen then? Not sure, but I suspect that with the family lineage still intact the subordinate Lords Warding would be a lot more likely to throw in with the kid (as opposed to some "upstart").

Oh and I really don't think there's any chance Yurokhas will be made Baron of South Riding. Amusing idea, perhaps, but I can't realistically see either Markhos trying it OR Yurokhas accepting it.

Brom O'Berin wrote:In our past, what would normally happen in a civil insurrection is that somehow one or more members of a noble family could be found on each side. This allowed the titles and land to remain in the family, no matter which side came out the victor. Because of the support provided by the "winning" family member, the losing family members would almost always be allowed to live, and swear allegiance to the new ruler, instead of losing their heads.

Cassan may have kept his children from knowing everything he did, but they had to be aware of his opposition to the Crown plans and also that Cassan would be working to somehow nullify or midigate the results toward something more to his liking. They definitely were not opposing their father nor supporting the Crown policies.

I disagree that precedent is for the son gaining the Barony. As shown, Sothoi history seems to be against it.

Tellian bounced the March Warden (Red-somthing) who tried to start the war with Hurgrum. He had not tried to assassinate Tellian, nor would his acts be considered treason against the Crown. They merely went against Tellian's policies - which was enough to allow his Lord Baron to remove him and give his lands to a more loyal vassal. He was not married, and I don't recall any siblings.

I believe Golden Vale had a family, but his actions in attacking Fermian resulted in his family being attainted (and Cassan also losing those lands and taxes to Tellian). Vale's acts were against the King's laws, but not even close to the level of Cassan's crimes.

Cassan's acts (treason, conspiracy against the Crown, attempted regicide, and knowingly consorting with wizards and other followers of the Dark Gods, etc.) were at the highest/most serious level, of such nature that the only penalty allowed was death, and were made worse by his being one of the four great nobles of the nation. With all the evidence that the Dark Gods are meddling in Sothoi, the King can not allow South Riding to be held by someone he can't trust. I would not be surprised if he gives it to his younger brother. Heh, he would probably do just to tie his brother down with responsibilities and problems ...

FriarBob wrote:
Valentinian wrote:In OUR reality's history (European history, mind you), the family of a treacherous noble as often as not lost the right to inherit his title & holdings. It all depended on how loyal his vassals were to his house, and whether they were more loyal to his house than to the royal house...


Oh yeah, I agree that it would be the logical response from our history. For that matter, it's what I'd want to do in Markhos' shoes as well. But the precedent in the series seems to look like it might be hard to strip the son of his title and avoid a civil war.
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Re: Spoilers: After WMC's epilogue
Post by biochem   » Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:01 pm

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One way the King could mitigate the loyalty issue would be to award South Riding to Thorandas upon his immediate marriage to Shairnayith. The "neutral" North Riding heir would be much more acceptable to the Lords of South Riding than anyone associated with their longtime enemy Tellian. Plus although the son would be disinherited, the barony would stay in the bloodline which is probably the best that they could hope for when such serious treason has been committed. Of course there would also need to be a new heir for North Riding. I don't suppose there is a second son that hasn't been mentioned yet?
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Re: Spoilers: After WMC's epilogue
Post by FriarBob   » Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:53 pm

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biochem wrote:One way the King could mitigate the loyalty issue would be to award South Riding to Thorandas upon his immediate marriage to Shairnayith. The "neutral" North Riding heir would be much more acceptable to the Lords of South Riding than anyone associated with their longtime enemy Tellian. Plus although the son would be disinherited, the barony would stay in the bloodline which is probably the best that they could hope for when such serious treason has been committed. Of course there would also need to be a new heir for North Riding. I don't suppose there is a second son that hasn't been mentioned yet?


Hmm... I could actually see something like that working. I don't buy Thorandas, mind you, because he's the heir of North Riding (and also under at least some degree of suspicion anyway). But perhaps a younger son? Or cousin? As long as it's somebody who's traditionally "neutral" (and preferably actually was) marrying into the bloodline that would probably work at least semi-OK.
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Re: Spoilers: After WMC's epilogue
Post by SYED   » Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:51 am

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First, everyone linked to Cassan would need to be checked out by mages, or forever have their reputations tainted, so a great deal of the south riding will be thoroughly checked out. This would likely lead to the revelations of some of Cassan shady deals so they would be dealt with.
The king has an option instead of striping Cassan's family of all their titles and lands, and forcing them to become enemies. WHile the ghouls were routed when the devils were destroyed, ghoul moor and the surrounding lands are still sure to be dangerous. So Cassan son will be volunteered to send his forces to help hunt the remaining ghouls down, and pay for a great deal of the expenses. A way for his family to regain the honor lost when their father attempted treason.
Also, any expedition to deal with the Ghouls would get the backing of the Windridders, War maids, the holy order and others. THey all know that its possible for the dark gods to form these creatures in to an army, so they are a threat that must be removed.
Out of curiosity, does any one know where that secret wizard base was actually located? THe one where Wencit had placed his magic stone centuries before the bad guy.
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Re: Spoilers: After WMC's epilogue
Post by FriarBob   » Tue Jul 31, 2012 12:48 pm

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SYED wrote:First, everyone linked to Cassan would need to be checked out by mages, or forever have their reputations tainted, so a great deal of the south riding will be thoroughly checked out. This would likely lead to the revelations of some of Cassan shady deals so they would be dealt with.
The king has an option instead of striping Cassan's family of all their titles and lands, and forcing them to become enemies. WHile the ghouls were routed when the devils were destroyed, ghoul moor and the surrounding lands are still sure to be dangerous. So Cassan son will be volunteered to send his forces to help hunt the remaining ghouls down, and pay for a great deal of the expenses. A way for his family to regain the honor lost when their father attempted treason.
Also, any expedition to deal with the Ghouls would get the backing of the Windridders, War maids, the holy order and others. THey all know that its possible for the dark gods to form these creatures in to an army, so they are a threat that must be removed.
Out of curiosity, does any one know where that secret wizard base was actually located? THe one where Wencit had placed his magic stone centuries before the bad guy.


On the mages part, you actually make a bit of sense. Congrats.

For the rest... um, did you read the book or just skim it?

Hunt the "remaining" ghouls down? A threat that must be "removed"? Against an enemy that still numbers in at least the tens of thousands and breeds like rabbits on steroids? And is composed of warriors that is somewhere around 10 feet tall with superhuman strength and speed? Who brought forward only their warriors (presumably their males) and protected their women and children (presumably at the direction of Anshakar) so they can replenish their numbers even faster than normal?

So Cassan's son and men, who aren't stupid, and who know just how tough an enemy the Ghouls are (their territories abut, after all, so they fight at least isolated raids/battles with them probably every other year... or even more often than that) are supposed to go off on this grand quest to "reclaim their honor" or the like and get themselves all killed off? You really think they would agree to that rather than take up arms against the man sending them off to their deaths?

And even if they managed to survive (as a unit, if not necessarily as individuals) and kill a bunch more ghouls, or even most of the rest, did you miss the bit where the Sothoii had previously tried just this very thing, and had even thought they'd succeeded twice??... only to later find out that a few survivors had escaped into the Sharmi and bred their numbers back up before they reclaimed their lands? But surely if we try again, the third try is the charm, right?

This idea was so ludicrous it deserves only one response.

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Re: Spoilers: After WMC's epilogue
Post by AClone   » Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:48 pm

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FriarBob wrote:
This idea was so ludicrous it deserves only one response.


That was just rude enough to illustrate your own "stupids". Not least, because you applied your own preconceptions to what the OP was trying to say. Unfortunately, I'll have to return to illustrate my point.
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Re: Spoilers: After WMC's epilogue
Post by FriarBob   » Wed Aug 01, 2012 2:08 am

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AClone wrote:
FriarBob wrote:
This idea was so ludicrous it deserves only one response.


That was just rude enough to illustrate your own "stupids". Not least, because you applied your own preconceptions to what the OP was trying to say. Unfortunately, I'll have to return to illustrate my point.


I look forward to your attempt. But you'll have to do a TON better, or you'll get your own picture. Because unless he literally miswrote every single word, my initial response was 100% accurate.
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Re: Spoilers: After WMC's epilogue
Post by SYED   » Wed Aug 01, 2012 4:47 pm

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That attempt to wipe out the ghouls by the forces of Sothoi, was the act of one country to deal with a threat to their border security.
Any new expeditions to deal with them, would be backed by the Hradani confederation as well as the military forces of the orders of the gods, as now the ghouls represent a threat to the whole of orfressa and that entire universe. SO a good chance that the god's champion would gather to deal with such a threat. Also, due to treaty and the threat of the dark gods, the empire of the axe and the dwarven forces would assist and are sure to help build fortifications to allow the area to be fully pacified and watched over.
Also, the order of semkirk and wencit would be eager to assist.
Its the sheer scale of the forces that would seek to deal with the ghouls once and for all
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Re: Spoilers: After WMC's epilogue
Post by Brom O'Berin   » Wed Aug 01, 2012 6:13 pm

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How do we know that Tomanak or any of the other Gods of Light want the ghouls, or even the trolls, wiped out?

The Sothoi want them gone because they always saw them as a threat to their herds. Gee, until not to very long ago, who else did the Sothoi desire to have wiped out?

Do we know if the ghouls and trolls are native to Norfressa, or did their ancestors also escape from Kontovar and get pushed away from the coast by the unreasoning hatred of the other refugees?

Yes, they followed the demons, servants of Krashnark, but do they follow the Dark Gods, or were they doing it just from terror of the demons. Ala the hradrani in Kontovar, they also may be unwilling servants of the dark gods.

Even without any meddling by the gods, they certainly have all the reason ever needed to hate all Sothoi and hradrani.

SYED wrote:That attempt to wipe out the ghouls by the forces of Sothoi, was the act of one country to deal with a threat to their border security.
Any new expeditions to deal with them, would be backed by the Hradani confederation as well as the military forces of the orders of the gods, as now the ghouls represent a threat to the whole of orfressa and that entire universe. SO a good chance that the god's champion would gather to deal with such a threat. Also, due to treaty and the threat of the dark gods, the empire of the axe and the dwarven forces would assist and are sure to help build fortifications to allow the area to be fully pacified and watched over.
Also, the order of semkirk and wencit would be eager to assist.
Its the sheer scale of the forces that would seek to deal with the ghouls once and for all
Last edited by Brom O'Berin on Wed Aug 01, 2012 6:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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