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Spoiler. The ending is too much of a Deus ex Machina!

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Re: Spoiler. The ending is too much of a Deus ex Machina!
Post by Charles83   » Mon Aug 26, 2013 5:39 pm

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I disagree with you demostenes, and while several people here have put some possibilities about wencit, I would like to point to some aspects of the story that are implied but never said directly, also I think RFC left this implied since it gives him more freedom as a writer.

1 fact that we have is that wencit is extremely powerful and he has been alive since before Kontovar fell, how long is anyone's guess, now he saw how Kontovar was destroyed, he most probably saw what the wizards on the other side did, how they did it, how they liked to hide, etc etc. He most probably got all this knowledge in Kontovar in a forensic way, meaning he got his knowledge after looking at their atrocities, this knowledge may have led him to take precautions and build those precautions during the last 12 centuries.

Since we dont know what happened in Kontovar, we can only make assumptions, now the wizards of Karnadosa may have done the same thing create a stronghold just below the "Castle" or "safeplace" see what happened if their people succeeded then they didnt use the crystal but if their people didn't succeed then they blow everything up, now if they have use this technique before Wencit would know it, and since they came to Norfressa he may have started taking measures against those kind of tactics, we have seen all across 4 books how wencit is given credit for creating the Magi, how he has helped the kingdoms in Norfressa to have some protection against wizards, is so much a stretch of the imagination that he would build safeplaces pretty much where the wizards of Karnadossa like to build theirs, is a little paranoiac but since he was alive for the war in Kontovar, you could see it as justified paranoia.

See it like a police operation, if you know drug dealers just love certain location to produce or store drugs, well the police can rent or buy the apartment next door, put some undercover cops living there and as soon as the drug dealers start using the place, well you bust them, our police dont have the luxury of time or resources to make such long term plans, but wencit has those resources thanks to its magic and thanks to 12 centuries of living, he may have build a hundred safehouses all over norfressa, every time a town or city becomes a major city in norfreesa, Wencit could had visited and make a safehouse, put all the magical alarms, etc etc, when you have been alive 12 centuries you look for ways to keep busy and if you have an objective is easier, since Bahnak has started his new confederation, the capital of the hradani has grown a lot and with the canal they build in the last books that city is becoming a major city, so it wouldnt surprise me if wencit was building a safehouse under that city and putting protections.

So I think that a lot of things are implied in the story and that RFC is definetely not using Deus Ex Machina, what RFC is doing is just leaving us enough implied info to justify this kind of behaviour from wencit, the rest well we need to use our imaginations and fill in the details, we may not think the same as RFC and if we post something that RFC thinks its not right with his story, he will come and cut our heads, and tell us how the story goes, but the ending of the story I never felt it was deus ex machina, about the rest of the ending well my world view is different from RFC and I didn't like it for personal reasons, but that doesnt mean that I feel the ending is so preposterous.
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Re: Spoiler. The ending is too much of a Deus ex Machina!
Post by SYED   » Mon Aug 26, 2013 11:46 pm

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He mentioned time travel was tricky, but i wonder say he igured a way to locate wizard locations, then went back in time and planted his stones before the other guy set up. so he does not change the present, just change the future.
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Re: Spoiler. The ending is too much of a Deus ex Machina!
Post by Karthak   » Tue Oct 01, 2013 5:57 am

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I've just finished War Maid's choice, and in my opinion Wencit has Got To Go. I seldom call a character a Mary Sue, but I'm prepared to make an exception in this case, and if Kontovar is ever to be legitimate threat to Norfressa, Wencit has to die.
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Re: Spoiler. The ending is too much of a Deus ex Machina!
Post by biochem   » Wed Oct 02, 2013 10:20 am

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I've just finished War Maid's choice, and in my opinion Wencit has Got To Go. I seldom call a character a Mary Sue, but I'm prepared to make an exception in this case, and if Kontovar is ever to be legitimate threat to Norfressa, Wencit has to die.


It could actually happen. Wencit has mentioned several times that while Wild Wizards live a very very long time they are not immortal and will die eventually. Wencit was on the council of White before the fall of Kontovar. Since a wizard's power (or at least their ability to use it in the most effective fashion) seems to increase with experience, it seems logical that the wizards on the council were several centuries old at the minimum. Added to the 1200 years since Kontovar fell, this puts Wencit close to 2000 years old. He could be getting toward the end of his natural lifespan. There are some hints that he could be grooming a replacement. Brandark, Leena, or Leena's baby seem to be candidates for this. So perhaps Wencit will die of old age. There is a LOT that could be done with the fallout from that in a future book.
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Re: Spoiler. The ending is too much of a Deus ex Machina!
Post by PeterZ   » Wed Oct 02, 2013 11:46 am

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Personally, I like the speculation that Wencit is an avatar of Semkirk. At one point he will have to leave the mortal plane and let mankind make their own decisions. Sure he helped shape THIS universe so that the Light could survive. Going forward mortals have to carry more of their own water.

I suspect that Wencit represents part of the dichotomy between what gods are supposed to do and what man is supposed to do. Neither can do everything and both require the other to contribute. So Wencit helps create the menu of options that mortals have to select from. After all without his prodigious help, the Dark would have defeated the Light during the fall of Kontovar.

biochem wrote:
I've just finished War Maid's choice, and in my opinion Wencit has Got To Go. I seldom call a character a Mary Sue, but I'm prepared to make an exception in this case, and if Kontovar is ever to be legitimate threat to Norfressa, Wencit has to die.


It could actually happen. Wencit has mentioned several times that while Wild Wizards live a very very long time they are not immortal and will die eventually. Wencit was on the council of White before the fall of Kontovar. Since a wizard's power (or at least their ability to use it in the most effective fashion) seems to increase with experience, it seems logical that the wizards on the council were several centuries old at the minimum. Added to the 1200 years since Kontovar fell, this puts Wencit close to 2000 years old. He could be getting toward the end of his natural lifespan. There are some hints that he could be grooming a replacement. Brandark, Leena, or Leena's baby seem to be candidates for this. So perhaps Wencit will die of old age. There is a LOT that could be done with the fallout from that in a future book.
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Re: Spoiler. The ending is too much of a Deus ex Machina!
Post by Charles83   » Sat Oct 05, 2013 10:20 am

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Karthak wrote:I've just finished War Maid's choice, and in my opinion Wencit has Got To Go. I seldom call a character a Mary Sue, but I'm prepared to make an exception in this case, and if Kontovar is ever to be legitimate threat to Norfressa, Wencit has to die.


Karthak it is not necessary for wencit to die, even the most powerfull of mages its still 1 person, let me put it this way, if Kontovar attack Norfreesa en masse and I mean a full scale attack with invasion included then all the power that wencit has is moot, he could starfe kontovar but since everything that could attack or invade or do anything useful is coming to norfressa they simply dont care if kontovar is starffed, the gods of evil doesnt need that everything survive, if they can marshall enough forces to destroy norfressa they are willing to lose kontovar, they are that ruthless.

Also we definetely have some sort of upper limit on wencit power and while the kontovar mages dont know it, we the readers at least have an idea, and that idea comes from the comments at the end of the 4th book that he will do a massive strafe of kontovar and that that would burn out his power as a wild wizard and kill him, so there is a limit to his power, also while wencit has trained the mages to identify wizards and point them out so that they can be taken out, what happen if every single wizard of kontovar comes openly looking for battle, it may be even possible with enough planning to bring a major demon and bring every dark wizard to the battle and if by orders of their dark goddess they combine their powers wencit may find himself on an even match.

Remember that while we had some sort of textev about mages being able to detect wizardry, we dont have textev telling us that they can fight a full bloody combat against them 1 on 1 (and if there is textev telling us that please post it) in little while wencit has a massive ammount of power but he is massivelly outnumbered, I remember when i was playing D&D years and years ago that there was this guy on the good side with a massive ammount of power, the only way to take him out was for several of the factions of evil to work in tandem to take him out (and I mean several so more than just 2 factions in other words 3 or more), but the evil factions where so distrustful of one another that they never cooperated or when they did cooperate it was always grudgingly and without any enthusiasm so the end result was not good enough to take this guy out.

Also remember that wencit doesnt participate in every single battle, a lot of the time he is limited by the laws that he still follows, so he is not a mary sue, he has limitations but wencit is wise enough to choose his battles so that he is always fighting from a position of strenght instead of fighting from a position of weakness, look at the first book where he recruits bahzell and brandark so that he can focus on the enemy wizards.

Trying to say that Wencit is a mary sue and expecting him to die is the "I dont have enough imagination to counter a character that powerfull" solution, use your imagination, there are hints about limitations that wencit has impose on himself and hints about the limits of his power, even on the short story where he brings the guys with the LAV he is shown that he needs to wait for the right time and the casting is complicated enough that he need to be very careful about what he do, in other words he can make mistakes and he is not all powerfull some things he need to wait for the right time and the right moment to do anything about it.
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Re: Spoiler. The ending is too much of a Deus ex Machina!
Post by quark   » Tue Oct 15, 2013 7:12 pm

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Going back to the question of how Wencit could have lost the first war if he could plan so far ahead, another option is that he simply did not have the sword until after, or towards the end of, the first war.
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Re: Spoiler. The ending is too much of a Deus ex Machina!
Post by Charles83   » Tue Oct 15, 2013 11:17 pm

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quark wrote:Going back to the question of how Wencit could have lost the first war if he could plan so far ahead, another option is that he simply did not have the sword until after, or towards the end of, the first war.


Wencit lose the first war because the bad guys took proper precautions to overwhelm whatever wencit could do by himself even with all his powers, wencit and the rest of the white council needed to work together to create the spells to starfe Kontovar and they did it not as a way of winning the war but as a way of delaying the forces of evil enough so that they could mount a proper defense in norfressa and maybe a counterattack in kontovar.

I would really love if the magnum opus of this series is not a full defense of Norfressa but actually a series on trying to reconquest Kontovar for the gods of light, I dont mind Norfressa being on the defensive on the first book but, I would like to see the characters really thinking towards victory and not only towards survival.

I say this because I read a lot of series and almost always the good guys are defending most of the series, or if they are attacking is a fully inconsequential attack so a commando attack can go and destroy the "magical artifact/temple/leader" of the enemy side, RFC is one of the few authors that put his characters on the offensive, look at the honorverse or at safehold, "oh the enemies attacked us here, lets retaliate there", and "how can we win this war?", and I like that is not only lets destroy the enemy, in the honorverse the answer has a lot of political ramifications and some of the principal characters are working with that in mind, and it is the right characters, the queen, the admiral of the fleet, the prime minister, etc etc, in safehold the question touch the religious side, how can they really win against that belief etc etc, so for this i like the attitude of the protagonist, is not lets survive, It is LETS WIN.

So I do hope that when RFC go and write this series he doesn't go with a full defensive series where surviving equals victory, or a series where a commando team is the answer to victory, I would really like to see a full movement from the gods of light against the gods of dark, maybe not directly since by the rules of the world it would destroy the universe, but really that all the factions and nations that believe in the gods of light DO SOMETHING and be productive.
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Re: Spoiler. The ending is too much of a Deus ex Machina!
Post by akira.taylor   » Wed Oct 16, 2013 3:39 pm

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Charles83 wrote:
quark wrote:Going back to the question of how Wencit could have lost the first war if he could plan so far ahead, another option is that he simply did not have the sword until after, or towards the end of, the first war.


Wencit lose the first war because the bad guys took proper precautions to overwhelm whatever wencit could do by himself even with all his powers, wencit and the rest of the white council needed to work together to create the spells to starfe Kontovar and they did it not as a way of winning the war but as a way of delaying the forces of evil enough so that they could mount a proper defense in norfressa and maybe a counterattack in kontovar.

I would really love if the magnum opus of this series is not a full defense of Norfressa but actually a series on trying to reconquest Kontovar for the gods of light, I dont mind Norfressa being on the defensive on the first book but, I would like to see the characters really thinking towards victory and not only towards survival.

I say this because I read a lot of series and almost always the good guys are defending most of the series, or if they are attacking is a fully inconsequential attack so a commando attack can go and destroy the "magical artifact/temple/leader" of the enemy side, RFC is one of the few authors that put his characters on the offensive, look at the honorverse or at safehold, "oh the enemies attacked us here, lets retaliate there", and "how can we win this war?", and I like that is not only lets destroy the enemy, in the honorverse the answer has a lot of political ramifications and some of the principal characters are working with that in mind, and it is the right characters, the queen, the admiral of the fleet, the prime minister, etc etc, in safehold the question touch the religious side, how can they really win against that belief etc etc, so for this i like the attitude of the protagonist, is not lets survive, It is LETS WIN.

So I do hope that when RFC go and write this series he doesn't go with a full defensive series where surviving equals victory, or a series where a commando team is the answer to victory, I would really like to see a full movement from the gods of light against the gods of dark, maybe not directly since by the rules of the world it would destroy the universe, but really that all the factions and nations that believe in the gods of light DO SOMETHING and be productive.


A lot of series seem to feel that if the bad guys don't pretty much outmatch the good guys, thus making the good guys serious underdogs (at least on paper), you don't get a good story. (See: Star Wars - the Rebellion is pretty weak, while the Empire has many fleets, even "a lot of command ships" (that is, Super Star Destroyers). Thus, the Rebellion couldn't fight a conventional war (or even battle, really), because it would be overwhelmed.)

I agree that it isn't the only way to go. Given how much it has been used, it really isn't the best way these days.
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Re: Spoiler. The ending is too much of a Deus ex Machina!
Post by Charles83   » Wed Oct 16, 2013 9:48 pm

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akira.taylor wrote:A lot of series seem to feel that if the bad guys don't pretty much outmatch the good guys, thus making the good guys serious underdogs (at least on paper), you don't get a good story. (See: Star Wars - the Rebellion is pretty weak, while the Empire has many fleets, even "a lot of command ships" (that is, Super Star Destroyers). Thus, the Rebellion couldn't fight a conventional war (or even battle, really), because it would be overwhelmed.)

I agree that it isn't the only way to go. Given how much it has been used, it really isn't the best way these days.


Star wars is the worst example you could have used, yeah the movies deal with some very critical stuff, but the war didnt end with the emperor's dead, also the rebellion was strong enough that it was starting to cause problems to palpatine with what was left of the senate, that's one of the reasons why palpatine ended up using the death star as a mean of dissolving the senate, also after the emperor's death there was still years and years of war the republic went from being a rebellion movement to a full government with armed forces, to put it in numbers by the time that the first death star was completed the rebellion had the support of around 20% of the people of the empire and the number was growing, since there was also a lot of people who was keeping neutral, after the first death star the rebellion got more support, and by the time of the battle of endor the support of the rebellion was around 35+% and growing fast, yeah the empire military outnumber the rebel military by at least an order of magnitude but the empire needed to keep control in a lot more planets, while the rebels where desperate to do a killing blow to the empire the empire was also desperate into trying to kill the rebellion because things were eroding fast, with the emperor's death the empire dissolved into a lot of warring states, admirals all over the place got themselves set up as warlords, some still tried to keep things together, and the rebellion seeing that their collosal enemy has shattered in a lot of factions could organize itself as a government of the people and start bringing all those factions under control, so the rebellion were not the massive underdogs that you usually found in fantasy stories, it was a faction that was growing in strenght and this caused the empire to go the extra mile to try and destroy them before they could compete equally with the empire, but the strenght of the rebellion was barelly enough to survive those assaults and turn the tables and still it didn't mean automatic victory it still took years to accomplish it.

Also i'm not talking strictly about scifi, i'm talking mostly about fantasy stories, look at the deed of paksenarrion, tolkien lord of the rings, all the books by david eddings, the inheritance cycle by christopher paolini, etc etc, the majority (not all but a lot of them) of fantasy books always paint the good guys as so much of an underdog that they are going to lose if they go toe to toe against the evil side, so the good guys always need to resort to commando attacks, and once the leader/artifact/temple/whatever is destroyed automatic victory for the good guys.

In science fiction and star wars the expanded universe qualify, is more common for the conflict to be long bloody and even the underdog can put up such a fight that the big one can't continue, in star wars even on the newest books the empire is still alive, its a remnant of the old one but they are still alive, the new republic had a lot of issues to work with, in other science fiction series it has been aproximatelly the same, the conflicts are long and dont ussually mean full destruction of one side or the other, look at the honorverse, yeah haven was trying to conquer manticore but they had hundreds of internal issues, and never in all the books the manticorans went with "we slip a commando team in the haven capital world kill the guy in charge and everything will fall apart", I dont think that RFC will do a commando attack or any of those stuff, so far the bahzell series it has been a work of equals.

When the forces of darkness attack they do it in ways that are a lot more believable than most other fantasy series, thats why I hope the magnus opus expand upon.

P.S. I don't expand more on the star wars issue because the post would be too large for this forum and this is RFC forum not star wars forum.
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