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Spoiler. The ending is too much of a Deus ex Machina!

Fans of Bahzell and Tomenack come on in! Let's talk about David's fantasy series and our favorite hradani!
Re: Spoiler. The ending is too much of a Deus ex Machina!
Post by demosthenes   » Fri Jul 20, 2012 10:48 am

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My apologies, the quote about him fighting the Council to a standstill is not in the infodumps, but in the "War god's own".
"This was the man who had strafed Kontovar. Who had fought the Lord of Carnadosa himself, and all his inner council, to a standstill in the first, desperate days of the war which had doomed the Empire of Ottovar."

Now, I like FriarBob's explanation the most. It's logical, reasonable and frankly it makes a lot of sense. But that still leaves out why he didn't just hunt them down one by one. It's not like the Carnadossans are going to be staying together at all times or jump immediately to defend each other. These are powerful, suspicious and scheming people who are going to think twice before coming to somebody's aid, even if that person is a fellow councilor (plus it's not like a wizard with allow anyone else, even an ally, to teleport within his wards without a lot of advance notice). And Wencit seems to need only a couple of minutes, at most, to defeat a wand wizard.
A fair point is also the fact that all those people will be defended by their own loyal, but mundane bodyguard and, by his own rules, he cannot use magic offensively against them. This rule makes a lot of sense in peacetime, but during an war is just plain unbelievable. It would be like a squad of Special Forces soldiers, parachuted into enemy territory in order to blow up a critical command post, cannot kill the sentries because they are just common soldiers and not officers.
But OK, it's Mr. Weber's universe and he has to right to create whatever rules he want for his world. Plus MWW is a lot more consistent in the application of those world rules than a lot of writers I can mention. So, OK, he cannot use magic offensively against non-wizards. That still leaves invisibility and all the host of related powers that would allow him to get to the laboratory/workplace of the councilors.
And for those who are saying that assassinating enemy commanders in time of war is morally questionable, I would reply that strafing an entire continent and threatening to do that again, if provoked, is far, far worse. Not to mention the entire loss of life that occurred prior to the evacuation of Norfressa. If killing all those people has a pretty good chance to allowing his side to win the war, than that is the better choice.
And worst case scenario, even if he loses his soul in the process, one man's soul compared to the survival of an entire continent is a fair price to pay. Most defenders would give up everything if their sacrifice would have a chance of ensuring the survival and avert the future suffering of millions.
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Re: Spoiler. The ending is too much of a Deus ex Machina!
Post by FriarBob   » Fri Jul 20, 2012 1:44 pm

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demosthenes wrote: A fair point is also the fact that all those people will be defended by their own loyal, but mundane bodyguard and, by his own rules, he cannot use magic offensively against them. This rule makes a lot of sense in peacetime, but during an war is just plain unbelievable. It would be like a squad of Special Forces soldiers, parachuted into enemy territory in order to blow up a critical command post, cannot kill the sentries because they are just common soldiers and not officers.


It's slightly different when the weapon you'd be using (a gun) has no special properties and EVERYBODY could learn to use it, such that what makes said "special forces" trooper special is his/her extreme level of skill & training with it, and of course hard-trained extreme levels of speed of use. I'll avoid going into the need (or lack thereof) for laws on guns to avoid bringing political crap into this forum, but regardless of your opinion on guns I'm pretty sure anybody with any sense at all will agree that when a small minority of people have a superweapon and the average Joe is completely incapable of ever gaining even the slightest self-defense against said weapon, the rules have to be just a wee bit stricter...

That said, I'm pretty sure even under the laws of white wizardry Wencit could use spells defensively (just not offensively) to allow himself the essential ability to walk in unmolested and preserve himself long enough to accomplish the primary goal of what you are suggesting (killing the local black wizard)... IF he could get at them. But I suspect that, unlike the situation in Markhos' capital, Wencit couldn't get at the Lords of Carnadosa quite as easily. He didn't know about that war 700 years in advance and have centuries to prepare.

If he could have gotten at them, yeah, he could have hunted them down one-by-one and solved all the world's problems. But also recall that there was another semi-wild-wizard on the other side who he was also having to deal with. Not as powerful because he didn't go through the full wild-wizard crisis "properly", but still quite a handful. So he probably didn't have a lot of "spare time" to probe the enemy's various wards and tune an attack to break through (even though he was more than powerful enough, remember that the wand wizard from WMC thought it "impossible" for even Wencit to have not needed to "probe" the defenses deeply enough for him to have become aware of it... and he would presumably have been right save for Wencit's long-in-advance placement of his own kairsahlain).
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Re: Spoiler. The ending is too much of a Deus ex Machina!
Post by biochem   » Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:31 pm

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Recall the conversation with Bahzell regarding who was more able to act as he pleased Churnazh or Bahnak? That Churnazh was more free than Bahnak because he didn't care for his people and that Bahnak was more limited because he did? The same logic could apply to Wencit. In Kontovar he had to protect his allies, non-combatants, the slaves of the enemy (i.e. "human" shields), etc.
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Re: Spoiler. The ending is too much of a Deus ex Machina!
Post by Hollyg   » Fri Aug 10, 2012 8:28 pm

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On the question of Leeana's importance - I think one possiblity is the wizardry potential of Bahzell and Leeana's children. In "The War God's Own" at the end of chapter 14, Wencit & crew are discussing breeding across races. Wencit states that although the human-hradani offspring will be sterile - they live even longer lives than half-elves and normally inherit the best of their parents stocks "strength & toughness of the hradani parent, along with the link to the magic field and wizardry from humans." Given Leeana's demonstrated ability to know where her parents are - there is some potential for "more" and Bazhell's link to the magic field...maybe the children could be Wencit's replacement in the future.
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Re: Spoiler. The ending is too much of a Deus ex Machina!
Post by PeterZ   » Sat Aug 11, 2012 5:18 pm

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Welcome, Hollyg!

Recall that Brayahs speculated that Wencit wanted to eliminate wizardry. That it was too dangerous a power to tempt humanity with. Suppose Brayahs was right. What could Leeana and Bahzell's offer Wencit to change mind?

Perhaps the very sterility you cite. Half hradani wild wizards have the physical strength to work with lots of wild magic. Their longevity might be extended by the wild magic, making them longer lived than Wencit. On top of all that they can not pass their gift on. The gift dies with them. There cannot be another line of royal wizards to rule the races of man.

Half-hradani wild wizards born from Bahzell and Leeana may be able to outmagic all the hosts of Canadosa combined.

Hollyg wrote:On the question of Leeana's importance - I think one possiblity is the wizardry potential of Bahzell and Leeana's children. In "The War God's Own" at the end of chapter 14, Wencit & crew are discussing breeding across races. Wencit states that although the human-hradani offspring will be sterile - they live even longer lives than half-elves and normally inherit the best of their parents stocks "strength & toughness of the hradani parent, along with the link to the magic field and wizardry from humans." Given Leeana's demonstrated ability to know where her parents are - there is some potential for "more" and Bazhell's link to the magic field...maybe the children could be Wencit's replacement in the future.
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Re: Spoiler. The ending is too much of a Deus ex Machina!
Post by Brom O'Berin   » Sun Aug 12, 2012 1:19 am

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Recall his primary mission - defend Norfressa from another Carnadosan (or other Dark) invasion. His capability to strafe Kontovar again is all that keeps that from happening,
Yes, he kills the dark wizards and any Carnadosans encountered as and when encountered, but if he made a practice to go hunting wizards/Carnadosan, that would be noticed. If they thought that they could set a trap for Wencit, the dark gods are more than willing to sacrifice as many followers as necessary to ensure his death. His best protection is that he can't be tracked (unless he wants them to track him ...) and that there are no patterns to his movements. Anything that ties him down will allow him to be targetted and eventually killed,

demosthenes wrote:My apologies, the quote about him fighting the Council to a standstill is not in the infodumps, but in the "War god's own".
"This was the man who had strafed Kontovar. Who had fought the Lord of Carnadosa himself, and all his inner council, to a standstill in the first, desperate days of the war which had doomed the Empire of Ottovar."

Now, I like FriarBob's explanation the most. It's logical, reasonable and frankly it makes a lot of sense. But that still leaves out why he didn't just hunt them down one by one. It's not like the Carnadossans are going to be staying together at all times or jump immediately to defend each other. These are powerful, suspicious and scheming people who are going to think twice before coming to somebody's aid, even if that person is a fellow councilor (plus it's not like a wizard with allow anyone else, even an ally, to teleport within his wards without a lot of advance notice). And Wencit seems to need only a couple of minutes, at most, to defeat a wand wizard.
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Re: Spoiler. The ending is too much of a Deus ex Machina!
Post by Brom O'Berin   » Sun Aug 12, 2012 1:24 am

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Another welcome, Holly. That has been a thought of mine for a number of years - MWW either "tee tums" or ignores it ...

Hollyg wrote:On the question of Leeana's importance - I think one possiblity is the wizardry potential of Bahzell and Leeana's children. In "The War God's Own" at the end of chapter 14, Wencit & crew are discussing breeding across races. Wencit states that although the human-hradani offspring will be sterile - they live even longer lives than half-elves and normally inherit the best of their parents stocks "strength & toughness of the hradani parent, along with the link to the magic field and wizardry from humans." Given Leeana's demonstrated ability to know where her parents are - there is some potential for "more" and Bazhell's link to the magic field...maybe the children could be Wencit's replacement in the future.
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Re: Spoiler. The ending is too much of a Deus ex Machina!
Post by Jonathan_S   » Mon Aug 13, 2012 1:43 pm

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demosthenes wrote:BrightSoul, I agree that we don't really know what are the exact powers of the Sword, but it is strongly implied in the stories and the infodump, that this specific artifact is responsible for him being in the right place at the right time (look at Sword Brother, just before the duel with Tremala). I am just saying that it is too powerful even it is shows him probabilities and not certainties. Come-on, he hid the gramenhein (spelling) for 700 years, exactly under the spot where the Dark Wizards build their center? Even this one of 2 dozen possible places, to know it 700 years in advance is too much. He couldn't have lost the previous if he could see the future in that way.
It occurs to me that we don't know how big Wencit's kairsalhain is. The book mentioned that in effect Kontovar itself was akin to a kairsalhain for Wencit.

What if he really did turn a whole city, or the Wind Plain, or even all of Norfressa, into an actual kairsalhain. (Actually 700 years might line up with the founding of the city as the royal seat. Seems like a nice place to have special access to. Maybe Wencit routinely converts the area of all major cities into kairsalhain) In that case it wouldn't be specific foresight that caused him to plant his tiny magic beacon/weapon right where the dark wizard would build his wards, but rather general preperation so a dark wizard building a lain in an area of interest couldn't help building wards atop of Wencit's kairsalhain.
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Re: Spoiler. The ending is too much of a Deus ex Machina!
Post by biochem   » Thu Oct 18, 2012 9:49 pm

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One possibility (though an unlikely one) is that Wencit's protective feelings toward Leeana are personal. What if she is his granddaughter Or great granddaughter? Would a man who has lost everything once, not be very protective of the last of his line? Of course, it is unlikely that such a connection would be through the paternal lineage since it is a Baron's lineage and thus very closely watched. But her mother's lineage was much less distinguished and thus Wencit using an alias could have married in at some point.
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Re: Spoiler. The ending is too much of a Deus ex Machina!
Post by Kytheros   » Fri Oct 19, 2012 11:58 am

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biochem wrote:One possibility (though an unlikely one) is that Wencit's protective feelings toward Leeana are personal. What if she is his granddaughter Or great granddaughter? Would a man who has lost everything once, not be very protective of the last of his line? Of course, it is unlikely that such a connection would be through the paternal lineage since it is a Baron's lineage and thus very closely watched. But her mother's lineage was much less distinguished and thus Wencit using an alias could have married in at some point.

The connection could be on either side of the family, if it went back far enough, ie, went back to Kontovar.
Or, one of her ancestors was someone Wencit used to know, and was good/excellent friends with at some point, and if that someone died while helping Wencit, he might have decided or promised to look after their descendants.
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