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COnsequences of the Canal

Fans of Bahzell and Tomenack come on in! Let's talk about David's fantasy series and our favorite hradani!
Re: COnsequences of the Canal
Post by FriarBob   » Wed Feb 15, 2012 4:16 pm

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Macharius wrote:
War Maid's Choice, Chapter 16 wrote:Both the hradani and the Sothōii had tried at one time or another to sweep the Ghoul Moor clear and exterminate them once and for all. Unfortunately, a single female could produce literally scores of eggs in her lifetime, which was the reason even a handful of trolls or ghouls could grow to astounding numbers in an astonishingly short time. Even worse, both Troll Garth and the Ghoul Moor backed up against Barren Fell, and Barren Fell was terrible terrain to follow them into. Hilly, uneven, heavily overgrown, it offered ideal hiding places or spots from which they could ambush pursuers. And, worse yet, directly on the far side of Barren Fell, lay the Forest of the Sharmi. No one in his right mind went into the Sharmi, and upon occasion things much worse than any troll or ghoul came out of the Sharmi. At least twice, the Sothōii had believed they’d actually finished the ghouls off, only to have them re-emerge from the Sharmi and Barren Fell to reclaim the Ghoul Moor once again.


I see no way for things to change any time soon, even with a Sothōii - Hradani alliance. Both races recognize this, which is why they're not even trying to exterminate the ghouls but building forts and establishing patrols instead.

It might be possible long-term, but that's likely longer than the scope of the story yet to be told by RFC.


Rifles, especially cartridge-fed ones, would probably do the trick of driving them off any land that 'civilization' wanted to claim from the Ghouls. Anything short of that, however, probably not. And even that is unlikely to be enough to exterminate them... it would just drive them away.

So far we've been given no clue that Weber has any intention of going there in this series, however. And with the Dwarvish ability of their sarthnaisks, they have no NEED to develop gunpowder for mining purposes. So unless Sword Brother in some fashion 'contaminates' the technological development, I could easily see gunpowder never being developed during the entirety of this remaining series.
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Re: COnsequences of the Canal
Post by SYED   » Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:26 pm

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HOw is it that a river brigade kingdom is able to survive in that location?
Wouldnt they support the canal project as more shipping on the river would be better for them. I can totally see a faction of them cutting a deal with the good guys.
THe border lands likly have a mutual defence treaty, so I wonder if it will be altered to pacify the dangerous region.
WHat if to avoid the ghoul moor, they canal to the mouth of the spear river, may ba a longer journy but much less travel in ghoul territory.
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Re: COnsequences of the Canal
Post by Rook   » Thu Feb 16, 2012 10:26 am

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The River Brigands are nothing more than brown water pirates, and it has been stated in the book that it is unlikely that anyone honest would cut a deal with them. It seems unlikely they would have the discipline to build their own canals. They survived by looting what trade came up the spear river to the Sotholii lands via South Riding, not by actually working for anything.

I can easily the climax in the next book being some sort of fresh water battle between the River Brigands backed by the Purple Lords and the Northern Hradani... Possibly led by Brandark.

SYED wrote:HOw is it that a river brigade kingdom is able to survive in that location?
Wouldnt they support the canal project as more shipping on the river would be better for them. I can totally see a faction of them cutting a deal with the good guys.
THe border lands likly have a mutual defence treaty, so I wonder if it will be altered to pacify the dangerous region.
WHat if to avoid the ghoul moor, they canal to the mouth of the spear river, may ba a longer journy but much less travel in ghoul territory.
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Re: COnsequences of the Canal
Post by runsforcelery   » Thu Feb 16, 2012 2:25 pm

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Macharius wrote:
War Maid's Choice, Chapter 16 wrote:Both the hradani and the Sothōii had tried at one time or another to sweep the Ghoul Moor clear and exterminate them once and for all. Unfortunately, a single female could produce literally scores of eggs in her lifetime, which was the reason even a handful of trolls or ghouls could grow to astounding numbers in an astonishingly short time. Even worse, both Troll Garth and the Ghoul Moor backed up against Barren Fell, and Barren Fell was terrible terrain to follow them into. Hilly, uneven, heavily overgrown, it offered ideal hiding places or spots from which they could ambush pursuers. And, worse yet, directly on the far side of Barren Fell, lay the Forest of the Sharmi. No one in his right mind went into the Sharmi, and upon occasion things much worse than any troll or ghoul came out of the Sharmi. At least twice, the Sothōii had believed they’d actually finished the ghouls off, only to have them re-emerge from the Sharmi and Barren Fell to reclaim the Ghoul Moor once again.


I see no way for things to change any time soon, even with a Sothōii-hradani alliance. Both races recognize this, which is why they're not even trying to exterminate the ghouls but building forts and establishing patrols instead.

It might be possible long-term, but that's likely longer than the scope of the story yet to be told by RFC.

On a meta-story level, though, I'm unsure of the hradani need to expand at all. The introduction of Axeman agriculture techiques will substantially increase the population their existing land is able to support - which will grow very slowly given hradani fertility. Furthermore, as the (Northern Coalition) hradani continue to work together with the dwarves / Empire of Axe, I consider it more likely that the hradani will "expand" into dwarven and Axeman holdings, as humans and dwarves have intermingled - rather than increasing land holdings by taking all or part of the Troll Garth and Ghoul Moor (or Esgfalas).

To return to the OP, however, I am intrigued by the prospect of how the Northern Coalition will affect life for the Broken Bone and Wild Wash (and vice versa).


There have been multiple attempts to completely exterminate the ghouls since the Sothoii arrived on the Wind Plain. In fact, there have been at least a couple of occasions on which they thought they had exterminated them, only to discover that they'd missed a few who'd retreated into the Forest of The Sharmi and started reproducing all over again. The ghouls were deliberately designed during the Wizard Wars to be almost impossible to completely eradicate from any area they'd infested, and they continue to be very good at it. Think of this as being akin to Ripley's problems, if that helps put it into perspective. The only limitation on ghoul population reproduction is the food supply, when you come down to it. It's not theoretically impossible to wipe out every ghoul on the face of Orfressa; it would just be so difficult as to be impossible in practical terms. Believe me, if it weren't, the hradani and/or the Sothoii would have dealt with the problem long ago. Ghouls, my friends, Are Not Pleasant Neighbors.


"Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as Piglet came back from the dead.
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Re: COnsequences of the Canal
Post by PeterZ   » Thu Feb 16, 2012 6:13 pm

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Looks like you called this one dead on, FB.

Funny you should mention gunpowder, though. I was wondering if the gods that Brandark would ultimately follow are Semkirk, the smith and/or the god of fire. (I don't have a list with all the deities names handy.)

Might Brandark develop science perhaps? The art of manipulating the universe through physical means. Magic being the art of manipulating the universe through psychic means. You mention Sword Brother as a catalyst. Maybe Brandark's curiosity alone can spark that shift towards science as a field of study?

We shall see.

FriarBob wrote:Rifles, especially cartridge-fed ones, would probably do the trick of driving them off any land that 'civilization' wanted to claim from the Ghouls. Anything short of that, however, probably not. And even that is unlikely to be enough to exterminate them... it would just drive them away.
So far we've been given no clue that Weber has any intention of going there in this series, however. And with the Dwarvish ability of their sarthnaisks, they have no NEED to develop gunpowder for mining purposes. So unless Sword Brother in some fashion 'contaminates' the technological development, I could easily see gunpowder never being developed during the entirety of this remaining series.
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Re: COnsequences of the Canal
Post by Macharius   » Fri Feb 17, 2012 12:39 pm

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Oh, my - I said something to warrant an official reply. I'm just not sure what, since I was merely reinforcing what he said on the subject in the book!

Maybe it was the bit about expanding into Ghoul Moor? Given my own earlier comments that it wouldn't be possible anyways, that was sloppy writing on my part.

I guess it's nice to know the author agrees with me for agreeing with him? :D
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Re: COnsequences of the Canal
Post by ericth   » Fri Feb 17, 2012 12:47 pm

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The canal and the possibility of increased contact between northern and southern Hradani reminds me of something that I thought of when Bahzell first was given his directive to tell the Hradani about the rage. As far as we know, he hasnt been down south to talk to the Broken Bone and Wild Wash clans yet to tell them about the rage.

And, given that they are far closer to Kontavar, wouldnt they need to know this to have any hope of resisting an invation force intent on conscripting them the way they were 1200 years ago?
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Re: COnsequences of the Canal
Post by PeterZ   » Fri Feb 17, 2012 1:10 pm

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Very Nice, Ericth!

This ties very nicely to Trianal's impending marriage to a mage, doesn't it? Bahzell and his bride will visit his adoptive family and facilitate trade agreements between all three of Bahzell's and Leenana's clans. Hmmmm perhaps toss in war maid interests as well.

I wonder how much time RFC has included in his story arc for these developments? Will his very tight 5 book series begin immediately or some time down the road? Perhaps after our couple's first child reaches his/her late teens? Something suggests to me that the next book will begin some time longer in the future than War Maid's Choice began after Wind Rider's Oath.

If there is a delay, we may not see such a trip down south.

ericth wrote:The canal and the possibility of increased contact between northern and southern Hradani reminds me of something that I thought of when Bahzell first was given his directive to tell the Hradani about the rage. As far as we know, he hasnt been down south to talk to the Broken Bone and Wild Wash clans yet to tell them about the rage.

And, given that they are far closer to Kontavar, wouldnt they need to know this to have any hope of resisting an invation force intent on conscripting them the way they were 1200 years ago?
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Re: COnsequences of the Canal
Post by FriarBob   » Fri Feb 17, 2012 4:56 pm

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I very highly doubt that Bahzell has sat on his butt for seven years and never bothered to get the news about the new Rage down to the Broken Bone or Wild Wash tribes. Considering he was willing to announce this news on the eve of war between the Horse Stealers and the Bloody Swords, I cannot conceive of any reasonable explanation but that Weber just didn't bother to give said announcement any "camera time".

PeterZ wrote:Very Nice, Ericth!

This ties very nicely to Trianal's impending marriage to a mage, doesn't it? Bahzell and his bride will visit his adoptive family and facilitate trade agreements between all three of Bahzell's and Leenana's clans. Hmmmm perhaps toss in war maid interests as well.

I wonder how much time RFC has included in his story arc for these developments? Will his very tight 5 book series begin immediately or some time down the road? Perhaps after our couple's first child reaches his/her late teens? Something suggests to me that the next book will begin some time longer in the future than War Maid's Choice began after Wind Rider's Oath.

If there is a delay, we may not see such a trip down south.

ericth wrote:The canal and the possibility of increased contact between northern and southern Hradani reminds me of something that I thought of when Bahzell first was given his directive to tell the Hradani about the rage. As far as we know, he hasnt been down south to talk to the Broken Bone and Wild Wash clans yet to tell them about the rage.

And, given that they are far closer to Kontavar, wouldnt they need to know this to have any hope of resisting an invation force intent on conscripting them the way they were 1200 years ago?
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Re: COnsequences of the Canal
Post by Kytheros   » Fri Feb 17, 2012 5:27 pm

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FriarBob wrote:I very highly doubt that Bahzell has sat on his butt for seven years and never bothered to get the news about the new Rage down to the Broken Bone or Wild Wash tribes. Considering he was willing to announce this news on the eve of war between the Horse Stealers and the Bloody Swords, I cannot conceive of any reasonable explanation but that Weber just didn't bother to give said announcement any "camera time".

PeterZ wrote:Very Nice, Ericth!

This ties very nicely to Trianal's impending marriage to a mage, doesn't it? Bahzell and his bride will visit his adoptive family and facilitate trade agreements between all three of Bahzell's and Leenana's clans. Hmmmm perhaps toss in war maid interests as well.

I wonder how much time RFC has included in his story arc for these developments? Will his very tight 5 book series begin immediately or some time down the road? Perhaps after our couple's first child reaches his/her late teens? Something suggests to me that the next book will begin some time longer in the future than War Maid's Choice began after Wind Rider's Oath.

If there is a delay, we may not see such a trip down south.

ericth wrote:The canal and the possibility of increased contact between northern and southern Hradani reminds me of something that I thought of when Bahzell first was given his directive to tell the Hradani about the rage. As far as we know, he hasnt been down south to talk to the Broken Bone and Wild Wash clans yet to tell them about the rage.

And, given that they are far closer to Kontavar, wouldnt they need to know this to have any hope of resisting an invation force intent on conscripting them the way they were 1200 years ago?

'Specially, since he's a Windrider. Cuts down on travel times quite a bit. Even more if he doesn't have any side errands on the way.
Or, heck, he arguably could have had someone else deliver the message for him. Wouldn't even necessarily have needed to have been a Hradani delivering the message, but probably would've been one anyways (probably one or more of the Order).
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