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COnsequences of the Canal

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COnsequences of the Canal
Post by SYED   » Mon Feb 13, 2012 7:05 pm

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People think that the horse people and the Hradi are the only ones that are gonna deal with troll, ghouls and brigades. FOr the first time the empire of the spear may have access to water based trade not influenced by the P lords, that single fact must have been tough to accept. THe empire may become eager to assist in the effort to pacify the region.

tHE SOUTHERN hRADI HAD NEVER had consistant contact with their northen brethen, but with the canal, they may have continual contact and influence with their cousins. Follow their lead in their development. WOuld the south join the confederation, to give them a stronger position in the world.
ALso the fact they now have a champion, a chapter house and formal alliance, they are an agressive race, I can totally see them fighting the purple lords if need be.
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Re: COnsequences of the Canal
Post by Brom O'Berin   » Mon Feb 13, 2012 9:16 pm

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I doubt anything more than extremely rare contact between southern and northern Hradani is the rule, as the easiest way from Hurgrum to either the Wild Wash or Broken Bone clans would be to take the canal to the Morvan River, ride it down to Angthur, and catch a vessel southward along the coast. Until recently, even hradani would have trouble surviving that trip.

SYED wrote:People think that the horse people and the Hradi are the only ones that are gonna deal with troll, ghouls and brigades. FOr the first time the empire of the spear may have access to water based trade not influenced by the P lords, that single fact must have been tough to accept. THe empire may become eager to assist in the effort to pacify the region.

tHE SOUTHERN hRADI HAD NEVER had consistant contact with their northen brethen, but with the canal, they may have continual contact and influence with their cousins. Follow their lead in their development. WOuld the south join the confederation, to give them a stronger position in the world.
ALso the fact they now have a champion, a chapter house and formal alliance, they are an agressive race, I can totally see them fighting the purple lords if need be.
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Re: COnsequences of the Canal
Post by FriarBob   » Tue Feb 14, 2012 12:23 am

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True... and totally misses the point.

His point was that they can have more contact now. Not that they already have had it. Before the canal it would have been nearly impossible, absolutely correct. But now with the canal about to "go live", and with peace breaking out between hradani and humans (and dwarves) -- which is at least partly caused by the canal project -- the situation is changing. So because of the canal, they now at least could have it in the future.

Brom O'Berin wrote:I doubt anything more than extremely rare contact between southern and northern Hradani is the rule, as the easiest way from Hurgrum to either the Wild Wash or Broken Bone clans would be to take the canal to the Morvan River, ride it down to Angthur, and catch a vessel southward along the coast. Until recently, even hradani would have trouble surviving that trip.

SYED wrote:People think that the horse people and the Hradi are the only ones that are gonna deal with troll, ghouls and brigades. FOr the first time the empire of the spear may have access to water based trade not influenced by the P lords, that single fact must have been tough to accept. THe empire may become eager to assist in the effort to pacify the region.

tHE SOUTHERN hRADI HAD NEVER had consistant contact with their northen brethen, but with the canal, they may have continual contact and influence with their cousins. Follow their lead in their development. WOuld the south join the confederation, to give them a stronger position in the world.
ALso the fact they now have a champion, a chapter house and formal alliance, they are an agressive race, I can totally see them fighting the purple lords if need be.
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Re: COnsequences of the Canal
Post by PeterZ   » Tue Feb 14, 2012 10:23 am

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All that may be true and look forward to seeing how RFC will incorporate those elements into the stories.

I am a bit more curious about how the Northern Confederation will deal with the those nations bordering the Empire of the Spear on the north, between Troll Garth Goul Moor and the Empire itself. This summer's campaign has likely killed off half or more of the adult goul population. Their population will be lower than usuall for quite some time. Seems like a good opportunity to clear out the area permanently. Aggressive campaigning should do the trick in 2-3 years if the land can be settled and held as the soldiers sweep through.

Two things come to mind at this point. Who does the settling? Where do the displaced gouls and trolls go?

I suspect that the gouls will flee south and east along the Spear River. That means those border kingdoms will face the pressure of that migration. Will they seek aid from the Empire of the Spear or seek admission into the Northern Confederation? Interesting question that RFC will have to answer I think.

The settlers moving into the vacated lands will likely come from the border kingdoms surrounding the Empire of the Axe, from the Sothoii and the Northern Confederation. Who will have sovereignty over that newly developed land? The Sothoii? If so, which Riding? Odds look most likely that the Northern Confederation adds another member. The Lord Wardens will not let West Riding get even more powerful and the King, Tellian, the Wind Riders and the War Maids will not let South Riding under Cassan's son get stronger.

So, by the time the next novel begins some years down the line, Banahk will be ruler of a much larger kingdom. I say some years down the line, because the Dark has precious few resources left in Norfressa. It must build back those resources before it can act. Norfressa must complete its technological development before it can face the magical forces of Carnadosa head to head. Finally, RFC said that his final war will take up 5 novels and the next Bahzell book will start that final war. That suggests that the next story arc will take place some years after the end of WMC.

Anyway, that's my bit of speculation for that neck of the woods.

SYED wrote:People think that the horse people and the Hradi are the only ones that are gonna deal with troll, ghouls and brigades. FOr the first time the empire of the spear may have access to water based trade not influenced by the P lords, that single fact must have been tough to accept. THe empire may become eager to assist in the effort to pacify the region.

tHE SOUTHERN hRADI HAD NEVER had consistant contact with their northen brethen, but with the canal, they may have continual contact and influence with their cousins. Follow their lead in their development. WOuld the south join the confederation, to give them a stronger position in the world.
ALso the fact they now have a champion, a chapter house and formal alliance, they are an agressive race, I can totally see them fighting the purple lords if need be.
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Re: COnsequences of the Canal
Post by BrightSoul   » Tue Feb 14, 2012 8:42 pm

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Hi PeterZ, I think RFC addressed this in the text but I'll have to circle back to find it later. If I recall correctly there is mention of previous attempts to prune back the Ghouls in the Moor but that they were egg layers with a rapid population growth rate until they eat their own young. I also seem to recall that when these raids happened the Ghouls would flee east into the Troll Garth rather than South into populated lands. Once the campaign into the Moor was over another would have to be sent in 2-3 years because they could repopulate from the Troll Garth after.
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Re: COnsequences of the Canal
Post by SYED   » Tue Feb 14, 2012 8:45 pm

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WHat with the hradi gender equlity be better than mosts, i WOnder if war maid towns would pop up?

If the hradi can expand to the kingdom of the river brigades, then they could control all the shipping to the empire of the spear, not the warden of south riding.
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Re: COnsequences of the Canal
Post by PeterZ   » Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:45 am

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I recall that in the book as well, BrightSoul. My point was that even egg layers reproduce at a finite pace. The young have to grow after they hatch. Until they are grown, the young are easier to kill than adults. Combine these assumptions with this past summer's campaign killing half or more of the existing adults and there may be a chance to do a more thorough job of reducing the goul population.

As I understand prior excursions into the moor, they could not kill as many as has been killed in this campaign. So the goul population should be smaller than usual for a longer time. That's the opportunity I see for other campaigns to take and keep territory for settlement.

BrightSoul wrote:Hi PeterZ, I think RFC addressed this in the text but I'll have to circle back to find it later. If I recall correctly there is mention of previous attempts to prune back the Ghouls in the Moor but that they were egg layers with a rapid population growth rate until they eat their own young. I also seem to recall that when these raids happened the Ghouls would flee east into the Troll Garth rather than South into populated lands. Once the campaign into the Moor was over another would have to be sent in 2-3 years because they could repopulate from the Troll Garth after.
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Re: COnsequences of the Canal
Post by PeterZ   » Wed Feb 15, 2012 10:23 am

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Quite likely, I suspect. The question would still be if they would be War Maid towns answering to the Kingdom of the Sothoii or simply towns and cities of War Maid emigres answering to the Northern Confederation?

SYED wrote:WHat with the hradi gender equlity be better than mosts, i WOnder if war maid towns would pop up?

If the hradi can expand to the kingdom of the river brigades, then they could control all the shipping to the empire of the spear, not the warden of south riding.
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Re: COnsequences of the Canal
Post by Macharius   » Wed Feb 15, 2012 1:59 pm

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War Maid's Choice, Chapter 16 wrote:Both the hradani and the Sothōii had tried at one time or another to sweep the Ghoul Moor clear and exterminate them once and for all. Unfortunately, a single female could produce literally scores of eggs in her lifetime, which was the reason even a handful of trolls or ghouls could grow to astounding numbers in an astonishingly short time. Even worse, both Troll Garth and the Ghoul Moor backed up against Barren Fell, and Barren Fell was terrible terrain to follow them into. Hilly, uneven, heavily overgrown, it offered ideal hiding places or spots from which they could ambush pursuers. And, worse yet, directly on the far side of Barren Fell, lay the Forest of the Sharmi. No one in his right mind went into the Sharmi, and upon occasion things much worse than any troll or ghoul came out of the Sharmi. At least twice, the Sothōii had believed they’d actually finished the ghouls off, only to have them re-emerge from the Sharmi and Barren Fell to reclaim the Ghoul Moor once again.


I see no way for things to change any time soon, even with a Sothōii-hradani alliance. Both races recognize this, which is why they're not even trying to exterminate the ghouls but building forts and establishing patrols instead.

It might be possible long-term, but that's likely longer than the scope of the story yet to be told by RFC.

On a meta-story level, though, I'm unsure of the hradani need to expand at all. The introduction of Axeman agriculture techiques will substantially increase the population their existing land is able to support - which will grow very slowly given hradani fertility. Furthermore, as the (Northern Coalition) hradani continue to work together with the dwarves / Empire of Axe, I consider it more likely that the hradani will "expand" into dwarven and Axeman holdings, as humans and dwarves have intermingled - rather than increasing land holdings by taking all or part of the Troll Garth and Ghoul Moor (or Esgfalas).

To return to the OP, however, I am intrigued by the prospect of how the Northern Coalition will affect life for the Broken Bone and Wild Wash (and vice versa).
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Re: COnsequences of the Canal
Post by PeterZ   » Wed Feb 15, 2012 3:14 pm

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Hradani fertility hasn't changed at all. Hradani mortality has changed quite a bit. They are dying less frequently in their raiding ventures against each other and against their human neighbors. Children more likely to live through their first winter. They are getting more food more consistently due to better farming methods. Its been 10 years of that and Humgrun has grown quite a bit already.

Population pressures have to increase in the face of these factors.

As for whether clearing the Goul Moor and Troll Garth is possible, I don't know. All the story covers deals with normal expeditions. Those probably did not envision killing anywhere near either the relative or absolute amounts of gouls as was accomplished in this campaign. Building upon the unexpected thoroughness of this campaign's level of goul extermination to permanently clear the area may be possible. It may even be advisable. We will see in the next book.


Macharius wrote:
War Maid's Choice, Chapter 16 wrote:Both the hradani and the Sothōii had tried at one time or another to sweep the Ghoul Moor clear and exterminate them once and for all. Unfortunately, a single female could produce literally scores of eggs in her lifetime, which was the reason even a handful of trolls or ghouls could grow to astounding numbers in an astonishingly short time. Even worse, both Troll Garth and the Ghoul Moor backed up against Barren Fell, and Barren Fell was terrible terrain to follow them into. Hilly, uneven, heavily overgrown, it offered ideal hiding places or spots from which they could ambush pursuers. And, worse yet, directly on the far side of Barren Fell, lay the Forest of the Sharmi. No one in his right mind went into the Sharmi, and upon occasion things much worse than any troll or ghoul came out of the Sharmi. At least twice, the Sothōii had believed they’d actually finished the ghouls off, only to have them re-emerge from the Sharmi and Barren Fell to reclaim the Ghoul Moor once again.


I see no way for things to change any time soon, even with a Sothōii-hradani alliance. Both races recognize this, which is why they're not even trying to exterminate the ghouls but building forts and establishing patrols instead.

It might be possible long-term, but that's likely longer than the scope of the story yet to be told by RFC.

On a meta-story level, though, I'm unsure of the hradani need to expand at all. The introduction of Axeman agriculture techiques will substantially increase the population their existing land is able to support - which will grow very slowly given hradani fertility. Furthermore, as the (Northern Coalition) hradani continue to work together with the dwarves / Empire of Axe, I consider it more likely that the hradani will "expand" into dwarven and Axeman holdings, as humans and dwarves have intermingled - rather than increasing land holdings by taking all or part of the Troll Garth and Ghoul Moor (or Esgfalas).

To return to the OP, however, I am intrigued by the prospect of how the Northern Coalition will affect life for the Broken Bone and Wild Wash (and vice versa).
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