Topic Actions

Topic Search

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

MASSIVE SPOILER: Weber, you clever, clever *******

Fans of Bahzell and Tomenack come on in! Let's talk about David's fantasy series and our favorite hradani!
Re: MASSIVE SPOILER: Weber, you clever, clever *******
Post by PeterZ   » Mon Feb 13, 2012 12:11 pm

PeterZ
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 5671
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2011 1:11 pm
Location: Colorado

The only thing keeping Phrobus alive is Orr's creation. Reread the prologue. Tomanak was going to destroy Phrobus, but then the creation manifested. Tomanak feared that the energy released from destroying a god may destroy Orr's creation at worst and at the vary least increase the uncertainty surrounding the god's existance as it relates to Orr's creation.

Had Phrobus gone back in tme to try and change things in the event things went badly for him, he would still be battling Tomanak. AAMoF, the universes would never have been created. Both sides would have gone back in time and tried to reshape events prior to the creation. Tomanak to prevent the horrors Phrobus would unleash had he won the Final Struggle. Phrobus to take one last chance at staying alive had Tomanak won.

The universe as we are seeing it would never have been allowed to exist as both sides would have gone back in time to try and change things before it was created. Think about the Zorastrian myth of Marduk and Tiamat's eternal battle, but happening prior to creation if both sides could refight that battle.

I think that Orr imbued his creation with some portion of his absolute sovereignty over everything to save the life of his 7th child. The purpose of this was his hope that even Phrobus may be redeamed somehow. This may or may not be possible as both the side of light and the side of darkness must learn something important before it becomes possible.


Skia wrote:
runsforcelery wrote:(2) The gods have never said that changing the past is impossible for them. What Tomanak has said more than once is that the gods will not change the past. It's a hard and fast rule they won't break (in that since, it is a case of "can't" be changed, but only because the rule is unbreakable) because there would be no way to control where it all ended if they started mucking around with time. It's sort of like Mutually Assured Destruction --- the same reason the gods don't casually go around intervening so powerfully in any given universe that they might destroy it. Don't forget that they are as captive to time as mortals now, and that even they have no way of knowing how many of the fractured universes resulting from Orr's splintered creation can be destroyed before the entire thing falls apart forever as unhealable.


I was thinking about RFC's point 2 a bit and right now I wondering what will prevent the Dark God's from doing this?
Let us say that the war between Kontovar and Norfressa goes on and Kontovar is on the brink of losing. We've already seen that this world is a major focal point with many worlds hanging in the balance. It has already been mentioned that the dark gods (some at least) hate the gods of light and hate mortals.
So if they go back and start changing the past, at best they change things around so they win. At worst they destroy the universe and those that they hate along with themselves. So what is to prevent them from doing this?
Top
Re: MASSIVE SPOILER: Weber, you clever, clever *******
Post by runsforcelery   » Tue Feb 14, 2012 12:46 am

runsforcelery
First Space Lord

Posts: 2006
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2009 11:39 am
Location: South Carolina

Markleaf wrote:Weber has mentioned - somewhere- that "Sword Brother" is not canon. That it didn't 'really happen' as far as the published or yet to be published story arcs are concerned. The biggest contradiction that more or less verifies this that in Sword Brother that it's all but explicately stated that Varnaythus was thrown to the wolves by Carnadosa after the events in "Windrider's Oath". That's obviously not the case.

Maria

FriarBob wrote:]

On the other hand, Weber was careful to never mention Cassan in SB... nor the detachment from the Order of Tomanak that will shortly (as of the end of WMC) be withdrawn from Zarantha's academy. So it's certainly possible that it is actually set afterwards. But I would be hard-pressed to say it's been proven so, either. I think instead Weber doesn't want us to know when it's set at all, because there are just so many potential contradictions here that he may well have made at least one (likely still minor) continuity mistake. But if we never truly know exactly when it actually was supposed to be set, it's probably at bit easier to overlook -- or not even know for sure what it is.



Of course it's canon. On the other hand, the gods (and your humble author) have been at some lengths to establish that there are lots and lots and lots of universes with the same people (or very close to them) living through different iterations of the same history . . . and possible outcomes.

Just saying. [G]


"Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as Piglet came back from the dead.
Top
Re: MASSIVE SPOILER: Weber, you clever, clever *******
Post by Markleaf   » Tue Feb 14, 2012 1:23 am

Markleaf
Ensign

Posts: 19
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2011 1:07 am

runsforcelery wrote:
Markleaf wrote:Weber has mentioned - somewhere- that "Sword Brother" is not canon. That it didn't 'really happen' as far as the published or yet to be published story arcs are concerned. The biggest contradiction that more or less verifies this that in Sword Brother that it's all but explicately stated that Varnaythus was thrown to the wolves by Carnadosa after the events in "Windrider's Oath". That's obviously not the case.

Maria


Of course it's canon. On the other hand, the gods (and your humble author) have been at some lengths to establish that there are lots and lots and lots of universes with the same people (or very close to them) living through different iterations of the same history . . . and possible outcomes.

Just saying. [G]


Ah. So =that's= what happened to Churnazh's fifth son and Krahana's fifth Servant. Wonderful thing for a writer to have, lots of universes. ;-)

Maria
Top
Re: MASSIVE SPOILER: Weber, you clever, clever *******
Post by DrakBibliophile   » Tue Feb 14, 2012 2:38 pm

DrakBibliophile
Admiral

Posts: 2179
Joined: Sun Sep 06, 2009 3:54 pm
Location: East Central Illinois

Now why am I getting the idea that Kenneth Houghton will pop up in another Bazhell novel and Bazhell doesn't know him but knows that Kenneth is another champion of Tomanāk. [Very Big Grin]

runsforcelery wrote:
Markleaf wrote:Weber has mentioned - somewhere- that "Sword Brother" is not canon. That it didn't 'really happen' as far as the published or yet to be published story arcs are concerned. The biggest contradiction that more or less verifies this that in Sword Brother that it's all but explicately stated that Varnaythus was thrown to the wolves by Carnadosa after the events in "Windrider's Oath". That's obviously not the case.

Maria




Of course it's canon. On the other hand, the gods (and your humble author) have been at some lengths to establish that there are lots and lots and lots of universes with the same people (or very close to them) living through different iterations of the same history . . . and possible outcomes.

Just saying. [G]
*
Paul Howard (Alias Drak Bibliophile)
*
Sometimes The Dragon Wins! [Polite Dragon Smile]
*
Top
Re: MASSIVE SPOILER: Weber, you clever, clever *******
Post by saintonge   » Fri Feb 24, 2012 7:04 pm

saintonge
Lieutenant (Senior Grade)

Posts: 97
Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2009 7:16 pm

Markleaf wrote:Weber has mentioned - somewhere- that "Sword Brother" is not canon. That it didn't 'really happen' as far as the published or yet to be published story arcs are concerned. The biggest contradiction that more or less verifies this that in Sword Brother that it's all but explicately stated that Varnaythus was thrown to the wolves by Carnadosa after the events in "Windrider's Oath". That's obviously not the case.

Maria


"Sword Brother" could still be canon, if you allow for some ambiguity in the MWW's language. For instance, Varnaythus is dead, but was his soul destroyed by Wencit? Probably not. So maybe Carnadosa is punishing him after death? Or perhaps she lied to her followers, to prevent them from knowing about Wencit's victory? I don't trust Weber as far as I could throw Tomanāk!
Top
Re: MASSIVE SPOILER: Weber, you clever, clever *******
Post by saintonge   » Fri Feb 24, 2012 7:07 pm

saintonge
Lieutenant (Senior Grade)

Posts: 97
Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2009 7:16 pm

Markleaf wrote:Weber has mentioned - somewhere- that "Sword Brother" is not canon. That it didn't 'really happen' as far as the published or yet to be published story arcs are concerned. The biggest contradiction that more or less verifies this that in Sword Brother that it's all but explicately stated that Varnaythus was thrown to the wolves by Carnadosa after the events in "Windrider's Oath". That's obviously not the case.

Maria



runsforcelery wrote:
Of course it's canon. On the other hand, the gods (and your humble author) have been at some lengths to establish that there are lots and lots and lots of universes with the same people (or very close to them) living through different iterations of the same history . . . and possible outcomes.

Just saying. [G]




And notice what Hisself ain't saying: that that applies to "Sword Brother." Slippery SOB . . .
Top
Re: MASSIVE SPOILER: Weber, you clever, clever *******
Post by Valentinian   » Sat Mar 03, 2012 12:35 pm

Valentinian
Ensign

Posts: 17
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2011 1:19 pm

DrakBibliophile wrote:The time loop is IMO unlikely. However, what's strange is that several times Wencit has *known* something that he can't have known.

In Sword Brother, he knew things about the hidden lair that he can't have known about.

In this book, he had placed a device that he used to teleport into the wizard's lair centuries ago. How did he know that he'd need to use that device?

IIRC the time loop idea violates info that David Weber has told us (both in the stories and in Snerkers Only) about time travel.

Since we're told that even the Gods had difficulty in seeing the future clearly, it's hard to understand how Wencit knows what he knows.

What the answer is, I don't know.






BrightSoul wrote:I don't but the time loop thing either. It is far more likely that Wencit expects her child to help re-establish the Council of White Wizards. More of an heir than anything else. There were quite a few hints over the past two books of what is coming.


Drak, we know that there used to be a sword (pre-Fall) that allowed the bearer to see into the future. In Sword Brother, when Wencit confronted the female wizard, she looked to his hip & thanked him for allowing her to finally know how he could have known so much about the Dark's activities. I think the answer is obvious...instead of that sword having been lost, Wencit managed to get it out of Trofrolantha before he fled to Norfressa.
Top
Re: MASSIVE SPOILER: Weber, you clever, clever *******
Post by ericth   » Tue Mar 06, 2012 5:13 pm

ericth
Commander

Posts: 217
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 10:35 pm
Location: USA

BrightSoul wrote:Drak, we know that there used to be a sword (pre-Fall) that allowed the bearer to see into the future.


We do? I somehow missed that one, can someone link or point to the source?
Top
Re: MASSIVE SPOILER: Weber, you clever, clever *******
Post by DrakBibliophile   » Tue Mar 06, 2012 6:07 pm

DrakBibliophile
Admiral

Posts: 2179
Joined: Sun Sep 06, 2009 3:54 pm
Location: East Central Illinois

It was mentioned in a Weber Info dump. However, while the Sword of the South is mentioned, I haven't seen anything about the Sword allowing the bearer to see into the future.

While one info dump implies that Wencit may be able to see future probablities better than normal, nothing is definite about it.

Some have suspected from reading Sword Brother that Wencit has the Sword of the South and that sword is the key to him knowing so much.

For the Orfressa Cycle infodumps see: http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/series/Orfressa/

The Sword of the South is mentioned in passing here: http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/en ... essa/226/1

Wencit's possible ability is mentioned here: http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/en ... essa/228/1

For all of the Weber infodumps, see here: http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/




ericth wrote:
BrightSoul wrote:Drak, we know that there used to be a sword (pre-Fall) that allowed the bearer to see into the future.


We do? I somehow missed that one, can someone link or point to the source?
*
Paul Howard (Alias Drak Bibliophile)
*
Sometimes The Dragon Wins! [Polite Dragon Smile]
*
Top
Re: MASSIVE SPOILER: Weber, you clever, clever *******
Post by Greyman   » Fri May 18, 2012 9:37 am

Greyman
Lieutenant (Junior Grade)

Posts: 43
Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2009 8:18 pm

DrakBibliophile wrote:It was mentioned in a Weber Info dump. However, while the Sword of the South is mentioned, I haven't seen anything about the Sword allowing the bearer to see into the future.

While one info dump implies that Wencit may be able to see future probablities better than normal, nothing is definite about it.
[spoiler]As of the end of War Maid's Choice, one might suspect that "see future probablities better than normal" may be somewhat of an understatement.[/spoiler]
Top

Return to War God