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MASSIVE SPOILER: Weber, you clever, clever *******

Fans of Bahzell and Tomenack come on in! Let's talk about David's fantasy series and our favorite hradani!
Re: MASSIVE SPOILER: Weber, you clever, clever *******
Post by Sharidann   » Tue Feb 07, 2012 11:19 am

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runsforcelery wrote:
PeterZ wrote:This disproves your premise.

When Lilinara give Geyrfessa her sight back, she states point blank that the past cannot be changed. Wencit going back would have changed everything. He was a central figure in the Fall of the Old Empire. He shaped events. He couldn't do that if he was from the future. Besides, if that past required a character from he future to create it, then the characters that shape that time have no free will. All their choices will have been set in stone to create their present and Wencit's past.

As for Wencit going back in time, I got the impression that he could travel back to see the past happening but not actually live and interact in the past.


Michael Everett wrote:I downloaded War Maid's Choice this morning. I have finished it and... Oh, Weber, you clever, clever, clever bastard! (Please note, that was in a tone of pure admiration)

What has me so impressed? The revelation about Wencit.

Seriously. If you have not read the book, READ NO FURTHER





I MEAN IT!





SERIOUSLY, STOP NOW AND GO BACK TO THE FORUMS!





Fine...

Let me note several important facts that Weber has put into the War God series in no particular order...

The children of a Human/Hradani pairing will have super-long lifespans and probably gain the power of wizardry. however, such children are sterile.

Wencit has been alive for at least 12 centuries.

Wencit has a soft spot for Hradani.

Bazhell and Leanna are married, and Leanna is happy to have kids.

Bazhell can tap into true Wild Wizardry (but can't control it, only direct the blast).

Wizards can travel backwards in time under certain circumstances.

Wencit takes an extremely dim view of anyone targeting Leanna.

Wencit is holding at least one permanent glamour on himself, possibly more.

Has anyone else put these things together?

My current theory?

Wencit is the son of Bazhell and Leanna. Born under a different name, he was tutored in the arts of Wizardry by his older self and, when he became old enough, he travelled back in time (with Tomonak's aid) to set in motion the events which denied the Dark their planned victory in Kontovar and thus set in motion the events which would lead to the colonisation of Norfressa and eventually his birth...
STABLE TIME LOOP!

I haven't been able to find anything that disproves this, but... if I'm right... [admiration]oh David, you clever, clever, scheming, pre-planning bastard![/admiration]

Wow. Just... wow.



Uh, I don't mean to be difficult, and I ain't a-sayin' anyone is right or anyone is wrong, but:

(1) I have never said the Strictures of Ottovar preclude time travel. On the other hand, Wencit has said that while time travel is possible for some wizards, only a lunatic would do it, specifically because the past is mutable. (There are some sidebars to that which I don't think have been discussed in the books, but since I'm basing the magic in Orfressa on quantum physics with non-physical means of manipulation, you can probably figure out what some of them are.)

(2) The gods have never said that changing the past is impossible for them. What Tomanak has said more than once is that the gods will not change the past. It's a hard and fast rule they won't break (in that since, it is a case of "can't" be changed, but only because the rule is unbreakable) because there would be no way to control where it all ended if they started mucking around with time. It's sort of like Mutually Assured Destruction --- the same reason the gods don't casually go around intervening so powerfully in any given universe that they might destroy it. Don't forget that they are as captive to time as mortals now, and that even they have no way of knowing how many of the fractured universes resulting from Orr's splintered creation can be destroyed before the entire thing falls apart forever as unhealable.

I have to say it's interesting reading the speculation on this thread. Of course, like Wencit, I have absolutely no intention of telling you whether or not you're even warm.

I will say Toni has agreed that my next solo project with Baen with be the first volume of the series which brings the war between Kontovar and Norfressa into the open and ends it once and for all. At the moment, I'm projecting it as a 5-volume series, and in this case, I don't expect it to grow much beyond that because I have a very tightly plotted story arc already written down and ready to go.


Couple of things:
1) about Toni having agreed that your next solo project is going to be the first novel of the series... YAY!!! (otoh, I am wondering just how many irons you got in the fire at the moment... and I wonder when the next Honor book (2d Part of A Rising Thunder will be published)
2) I said so on the Baen forums, I shall say so here: The prologue was awesome, as it explained the fight between Light and Dark, the limitations of the Gods etc... in a totally coherent fashion. Kudos to you!
3) Do you plan at some point (in the books) to drop some more details on the Artifacts of the House of Ottovar? :-) We know about the Crown (albeit it seems to have been lost, would have to do a reread to be sure) and we know that the Sword of the South exists, even though we don't know exactly what it does.
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Re: MASSIVE SPOILER: Weber, you clever, clever *******
Post by FriarBob   » Tue Feb 07, 2012 12:41 pm

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Sharidann wrote:3) Do you plan at some point (in the books) to drop some more details on the Artifacts of the House of Ottovar? :-) We know about the Crown (albeit it seems to have been lost, would have to do a reread to be sure) and we know that the Sword of the South exists, even though we don't know exactly what it does.


Where do we even find out anything about those? Maybe Pearls that I missed or something?
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Re: MASSIVE SPOILER: Weber, you clever, clever *******
Post by Skia   » Tue Feb 07, 2012 1:11 pm

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FriarBob wrote:
Sharidann wrote:1) about Toni having agreed that your next solo project is going to be the first novel of the series... YAY!!! (otoh, I am wondering just how many irons you got in the fire at the moment... and I wonder when the next Honor book (2d Part of A Rising Thunder will be published)
...
3) Do you plan at some point (in the books) to drop some more details on the Artifacts of the House of Ottovar? :-) We know about the Crown (albeit it seems to have been lost, would have to do a reread to be sure) and we know that the Sword of the South exists, even though we don't know exactly what it does.


Where do we even find out anything about those? Maybe Pearls that I missed or something?



It was in the Pearls of Weber. One of them talks about the fall of Kontovar and the nature of coursers and all of that.

It does seem like Wencit has the Sword of the South, given the importance, power, and instant recognition of his sword, but that is still only speculation.


I thought I remember reading that the sequel to ART would come out late this year, but that could be wishful thinking on my part.
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Re: MASSIVE SPOILER: Weber, you clever, clever *******
Post by Skia   » Tue Feb 07, 2012 1:51 pm

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runsforcelery wrote:(2) The gods have never said that changing the past is impossible for them. What Tomanak has said more than once is that the gods will not change the past. It's a hard and fast rule they won't break (in that since, it is a case of "can't" be changed, but only because the rule is unbreakable) because there would be no way to control where it all ended if they started mucking around with time. It's sort of like Mutually Assured Destruction --- the same reason the gods don't casually go around intervening so powerfully in any given universe that they might destroy it. Don't forget that they are as captive to time as mortals now, and that even they have no way of knowing how many of the fractured universes resulting from Orr's splintered creation can be destroyed before the entire thing falls apart forever as unhealable.


I was thinking about RFC's point 2 a bit and right now I wondering what will prevent the Dark God's from doing this?
Let us say that the war between Kontovar and Norfressa goes on and Kontovar is on the brink of losing. We've already seen that this world is a major focal point with many worlds hanging in the balance. It has already been mentioned that the dark gods (some at least) hate the gods of light and hate mortals.
So if they go back and start changing the past, at best they change things around so they win. At worst they destroy the universe and those that they hate along with themselves. So what is to prevent them from doing this?
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Re: MASSIVE SPOILER: Weber, you clever, clever *******
Post by TJ5   » Tue Feb 07, 2012 1:53 pm

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FriarBob wrote:It would also explain why the dark gods think of Bahzell as such a key component, yet admit that the key "revolves around him"...

Yeah, that sentiment is exactly what made me think of it.
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Re: MASSIVE SPOILER: Weber, you clever, clever *******
Post by DrakBibliophile   » Tue Feb 07, 2012 2:28 pm

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Phrobus seems smart enough to know that time travel could win his battle for Bahzell's world but result in him losing the war to replace Orr.

Sure he and the other Dark Gods could destroy Bahzell's world thus denying the Gods of Light a victory regarding Bahzell's world but the cost may be total victory for the Gods of Light.

Remember Phrobus isn't into "complete destruction" (that's his son Fiendark's game).

Phrobus wants to win control of all the universes and destroying Bahzell's universe might cost him that victory.


Skia wrote:
runsforcelery wrote:(2) The gods have never said that changing the past is impossible for them. What Tomanak has said more than once is that the gods will not change the past. It's a hard and fast rule they won't break (in that since, it is a case of "can't" be changed, but only because the rule is unbreakable) because there would be no way to control where it all ended if they started mucking around with time. It's sort of like Mutually Assured Destruction --- the same reason the gods don't casually go around intervening so powerfully in any given universe that they might destroy it. Don't forget that they are as captive to time as mortals now, and that even they have no way of knowing how many of the fractured universes resulting from Orr's splintered creation can be destroyed before the entire thing falls apart forever as unhealable.


I was thinking about RFC's point 2 a bit and right now I wondering what will prevent the Dark God's from doing this?
Let us say that the war between Kontovar and Norfressa goes on and Kontovar is on the brink of losing. We've already seen that this world is a major focal point with many worlds hanging in the balance. It has already been mentioned that the dark gods (some at least) hate the gods of light and hate mortals.
So if they go back and start changing the past, at best they change things around so they win. At worst they destroy the universe and those that they hate along with themselves. So what is to prevent them from doing this?
*
Paul Howard (Alias Drak Bibliophile)
*
Sometimes The Dragon Wins! [Polite Dragon Smile]
*
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Re: MASSIVE SPOILER: Weber, you clever, clever *******
Post by Sharidann   » Tue Feb 07, 2012 2:37 pm

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FriarBob wrote:
Sharidann wrote:3) Do you plan at some point (in the books) to drop some more details on the Artifacts of the House of Ottovar? :-) We know about the Crown (albeit it seems to have been lost, would have to do a reread to be sure) and we know that the Sword of the South exists, even though we don't know exactly what it does.


Where do we even find out anything about those? Maybe Pearls that I missed or something?


Was indeed in an infodump.
Link here: http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/en ... essa/226/1

Relevant part copy-pasted.

*For your information, the three main heirlooms [note the use of the qualifying adjective "main"] of the House of Ottovar were:

the Crown of Ottovar.
the Sword of the South.
the Harp of Chesmirsa.

As to what they do and the other heirlooms of the house… tum, te, tum, te, tum.
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Re: MASSIVE SPOILER: Weber, you clever, clever *******
Post by ericth   » Tue Feb 07, 2012 3:14 pm

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I have some ideas as to how this may all shake out.

We know that Wencit does seem to have an extremely remarkable ability to know what is coming in this timeline. It's speculated that he's from the future and possibly descended from Bahzell and Leanna. I think I know how that might be possible.

IIRC Wencit mentioned that even a wizard capable of time travel can only travel into his own past. If that includes any of the universes in which he himself exists, then the Wencit we see today could be a future Wencit who came to this world just as the version of him originally from this universe was dieing. Let's say that Wencit Version 1 died because of the spell for the strafing of Kontovar . At any moment following the demise of V1, Wencit V2 could gate backwards from the future of another universe and assume the identity of V1. This would eliminate the paradox issues as V1 and V2 could never actually meet. Wencit V2 could be from a universe where light had won, or at least where he wasn't needed as much as the universes on the critical path such as Bazhell's. We know from the prologue that the Bazhell universe is positioned to have a disproportionate effect, which could tempt Wencit V2 to intervene, especially if his scrying saw a good point to insert himself into the timeline. It could even explain how a "lost" artifact ended up in his possession. He brought it with him.

A Wencit from the future could know where most of the major events were to take place and place his something-hains ahead of time as well as know the layout of the temple in Sword Brother. Tremala could have recognized the sword, and knew that it had been destroyed in *that* universe and connected the dots.
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Re: MASSIVE SPOILER: Weber, you clever, clever *******
Post by Markleaf   » Thu Feb 09, 2012 11:32 pm

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Weber has mentioned - somewhere- that "Sword Brother" is not canon. That it didn't 'really happen' as far as the published or yet to be published story arcs are concerned. The biggest contradiction that more or less verifies this that in Sword Brother that it's all but explicately stated that Varnaythus was thrown to the wolves by Carnadosa after the events in "Windrider's Oath". That's obviously not the case.

Maria

FriarBob wrote:]

On the other hand, Weber was careful to never mention Cassan in SB... nor the detachment from the Order of Tomanak that will shortly (as of the end of WMC) be withdrawn from Zarantha's academy. So it's certainly possible that it is actually set afterwards. But I would be hard-pressed to say it's been proven so, either. I think instead Weber doesn't want us to know when it's set at all, because there are just so many potential contradictions here that he may well have made at least one (likely still minor) continuity mistake. But if we never truly know exactly when it actually was supposed to be set, it's probably at bit easier to overlook -- or not even know for sure what it is.
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Re: MASSIVE SPOILER: Weber, you clever, clever *******
Post by rawdeal   » Fri Feb 10, 2012 9:58 pm

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I see a possible work around here. Wencit gives his younger self temporary amnesia and sends him back to be fully trained by White Wizards (yes, plural). As no future knowledge exists, there is no way to act against future events. At some point, his knowledge of "future" events is released and he proceeds to act on that knowledge. I realize that this is probably too easy, but I thought I'd try...

RAW
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