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MASSIVE SPOILER: Weber, you clever, clever *******

Fans of Bahzell and Tomenack come on in! Let's talk about David's fantasy series and our favorite hradani!
Re: MASSIVE SPOILER: Weber, you clever, clever *******
Post by PeterZ   » Mon Feb 06, 2012 9:29 am

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This disproves your premise.

When Lilinara give Geyrfessa her sight back, she states point blank that the past cannot be changed. Wencit going back would have changed everything. He was a central figure in the Fall of the Old Empire. He shaped events. He couldn't do that if he was from the future. Besides, if that past required a character from he future to create it, then the characters that shape that time have no free will. All their choices will have been set in stone to create their present and Wencit's past.

As for Wencit going back in time, I got the impression that he could travel back to see the past happening but not actually live and interact in the past.


Michael Everett wrote:I downloaded War Maid's Choice this morning. I have finished it and... Oh, Weber, you clever, clever, clever bastard! (Please note, that was in a tone of pure admiration)

What has me so impressed? The revelation about Wencit.

Seriously. If you have not read the book, READ NO FURTHER





I MEAN IT!





SERIOUSLY, STOP NOW AND GO BACK TO THE FORUMS!





Fine...

Let me note several important facts that Weber has put into the War God series in no particular order...

The children of a Human/Hradani pairing will have super-long lifespans and probably gain the power of wizardry. however, such children are sterile.

Wencit has been alive for at least 12 centuries.

Wencit has a soft spot for Hradani.

Bazhell and Leanna are married, and Leanna is happy to have kids.

Bazhell can tap into true Wild Wizardry (but can't control it, only direct the blast).

Wizards can travel backwards in time under certain circumstances.

Wencit takes an extremely dim view of anyone targeting Leanna.

Wencit is holding at least one permanent glamour on himself, possibly more.

Has anyone else put these things together?

My current theory?

Wencit is the son of Bazhell and Leanna. Born under a different name, he was tutored in the arts of Wizardry by his older self and, when he became old enough, he travelled back in time (with Tomonak's aid) to set in motion the events which denied the Dark their planned victory in Kontovar and thus set in motion the events which would lead to the colonisation of Norfressa and eventually his birth...
STABLE TIME LOOP!

I haven't been able to find anything that disproves this, but... if I'm right... [admiration]oh David, you clever, clever, scheming, pre-planning bastard![/admiration]

Wow. Just... wow.
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Re: MASSIVE SPOILER: Weber, you clever, clever *******
Post by PeterZ   » Mon Feb 06, 2012 10:16 am

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My gut is telling me that Wencit is a Champion of Semkirk. That is, he is not only a wizard but also channels his god. It's that channel that let's him see more clearly....rather refine his focus to a more granular level than the god's normally do. I suspect that Wencit's over riding goal for the past 1200 years was to track down the contributing players to this cusp. Since he discovered this knowledge and interprets the woof and warp of the cusp's weave, the information he has is not considered devine intervention even if it does represent better understanding of events than that of some of the gods.

His knowledge of the Carnadosan plans indicates that he has planted such devices as may be useful in most places that are important to the development of the cusp events. His knowledge is not total but he likely has all the most likely important places bugged to a fare thee well.

DrakBibliophile wrote:The time loop is IMO unlikely. However, what's strange is that several times Wencit has *known* something that he can't have known.

In Sword Brother, he knew things about the hidden lair that he can't have known about.

In this book, he had placed a device that he used to teleport into the wizard's lair centuries ago. How did he know that he'd need to use that device?

IIRC the time loop idea violates info that David Weber has told us (both in the stories and in Snerkers Only) about time travel.

Since we're told that even the Gods had difficulty in seeing the future clearly, it's hard to understand how Wencit knows what he knows.

What the answer is, I don't know.






BrightSoul wrote:I don't but the time loop thing either. It is far more likely that Wencit expects her child to help re-establish the Council of White Wizards. More of an heir than anything else. There were quite a few hints over the past two books of what is coming.
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Re: MASSIVE SPOILER: Weber, you clever, clever *******
Post by Skia   » Mon Feb 06, 2012 5:52 pm

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PeterZ wrote:My gut is telling me that Wencit is a Champion of Semkirk. That is, he is not only a wizard but also channels his god. It's that channel that let's him see more clearly....rather refine his focus to a more granular level than the god's normally do. I suspect that Wencit's over riding goal for the past 1200 years was to track down the contributing players to this cusp. Since he discovered this knowledge and interprets the woof and warp of the cusp's weave, the information he has is not considered devine intervention even if it does represent better understanding of events than that of some of the gods.

His knowledge of the Carnadosan plans indicates that he has planted such devices as may be useful in most places that are important to the development of the cusp events. His knowledge is not total but he likely has all the most likely important places bugged to a fare thee well.

DrakBibliophile wrote:The time loop is IMO unlikely. However, what's strange is that several times Wencit has *known* something that he can't have known.

In Sword Brother, he knew things about the hidden lair that he can't have known about.

In this book, he had placed a device that he used to teleport into the wizard's lair centuries ago. How did he know that he'd need to use that device?

IIRC the time loop idea violates info that David Weber has told us (both in the stories and in Snerkers Only) about time travel.

Since we're told that even the Gods had difficulty in seeing the future clearly, it's hard to understand how Wencit knows what he knows.

What the answer is, I don't know.




I honestly wouldn't be surprised if he was a champion of Semkirk or for that matter a half-hradini. But it does seem like a fair amount of his ability to predict the future has to do with his sword.

From Sword Brother

Her eyes narrowed, then dropped to the sword at his side and widened in sudden, shocked understanding. No wonder he knew so much, had managed to predict so many attacks so accurately!

"My compliments, Wencit," she heard herself say. "I've always wondered how even a wild wizard could see the future as accurately as you've always managed. Thank you for satisfying my curiosity after all."
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Re: MASSIVE SPOILER: Weber, you clever, clever *******
Post by PeterZ   » Mon Feb 06, 2012 6:45 pm

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Yeah, I saw that at the bar. The Sword of the South is likely the cause of that prescience. His being a half-hardani from a line before hradani got real differentiated makes sense. Especially if their ears were less pronounced in that earlier line.

Mmmm....could it be that wild wizards had to have some hradani in them? Just a thought.

Skia wrote:
PeterZ wrote:My gut is telling me that Wencit is a Champion of Semkirk. That is, he is not only a wizard but also channels his god. It's that channel that let's him see more clearly....rather refine his focus to a more granular level than the god's normally do. I suspect that Wencit's over riding goal for the past 1200 years was to track down the contributing players to this cusp. Since he discovered this knowledge and interprets the woof and warp of the cusp's weave, the information he has is not considered devine intervention even if it does represent better understanding of events than that of some of the gods.

His knowledge of the Carnadosan plans indicates that he has planted such devices as may be useful in most places that are important to the development of the cusp events. His knowledge is not total but he likely has all the most likely important places bugged to a fare thee well.

DrakBibliophile wrote:The time loop is IMO unlikely. However, what's strange is that several times Wencit has *known* something that he can't have known.

In Sword Brother, he knew things about the hidden lair that he can't have known about.

In this book, he had placed a device that he used to teleport into the wizard's lair centuries ago. How did he know that he'd need to use that device?

IIRC the time loop idea violates info that David Weber has told us (both in the stories and in Snerkers Only) about time travel.

Since we're told that even the Gods had difficulty in seeing the future clearly, it's hard to understand how Wencit knows what he knows.

What the answer is, I don't know.




I honestly wouldn't be surprised if he was a champion of Semkirk or for that matter a half-hradini. But it does seem like a fair amount of his ability to predict the future has to do with his sword.

From Sword Brother

Her eyes narrowed, then dropped to the sword at his side and widened in sudden, shocked understanding. No wonder he knew so much, had managed to predict so many attacks so accurately!

"My compliments, Wencit," she heard herself say. "I've always wondered how even a wild wizard could see the future as accurately as you've always managed. Thank you for satisfying my curiosity after all."
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Re: MASSIVE SPOILER: Weber, you clever, clever *******
Post by FriarBob   » Mon Feb 06, 2012 8:20 pm

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Brom O'Berin wrote:2. All our former thoughts re SB occurring shortly after WRO are not correct - from Varnaythus' mention of Tremala, SB now follows WMC in the Bahzell timeline, and is at least 7 years after WRO.


On the other hand, in SB Bahzell talks about how his father had been "working out" a relationship with Tellian... not that he already had... much less had done so with the entirety of the Sothoii Kingdom. Sure that new peace will be a bit unsettled by bad memories for some time, but with an apparently huge number of Sothoii noblemen saying "I don't have to like it, but I'm still going to do it anyway if that's what's necessary to put my thumb square in Phrobus' eye", it's not going to still be needing much "working out" for very long. If the does indeed happen after WMC, it can't be too much after it.

And there are more contradictions here. Most critical would be the mention of "sending no fewer than four of his champions off to the Wind Plain"... which admittedly is wisely vague to give Weber wiggle-room, but with the list of dead in WMC this must either be counting the dead as still among the count of "previously sent champions", or is a big hint that a new champion is about to be found among either the Hradani or the Sothoii. Or perhaps even two, seeing as how Kerry was apparently nowhere near the Wind Plain by the time of WMC. And then there's the way they mused that with so many champions being sent there's "worse to come"... which sure as hell would be well-fulfilled by those devils we just got finished watching him beat. And to return to the original point, said defeat of those devils was a HUGE part of the reason why the "building relationship" is getting pretty blank close to "built" by now. (Of course, on the other hand, if worse than even those devils is yet to come, we should see some pretty interesting fights in the next book or two... whenever they come out...)

Furthermore, there's no indication that wizards are aware when one of their number falls... unless Carnadossa decides to tell them. They aren't telepaths the way mages sometimes are, at least not so far as we can tell. And that means it's entirely possible Varnaythus could simply have been unaware that Tremala was already dead. Of course, the reverse could also be true as well, but the way Tremala claims he "deserved better" but then they also discuss his punishment as if it came from the failure of his associations with Shigu and Krahana's minions... and not those of Krashnark. Which both one one hand suggests the possibility of his already being dead... but also suggests they are discussing the possibility of current disfavor rather than some sort of punishment/destruction in an afterlife. It could easily be read either way.

And then there's this little excerpt from the prologue of WMC:
Yet there was a disadvantage to that, as well, as Sharnā and Shīgū had both discovered. It was one thing for a god to decide to withdraw his power from an avatar in an orderly fashion; it was quite another when that avatar was destroyed before he could withdraw. When that happened, the power, the fragment of his own essence, which had been poured into his mortal tool was lost with the avatar. Worse, it left him temporarily maimed, unable to reach back into that particular reality until the strength he’d lost regenerated itself once more, and that was precisely what had happened to Sharnā and Shīgū.

Sharnā had largely recovered from the damage he’d taken when Bahzell slew Harnak Churnazhson, but he’d been foolish enough to invest even more of his essence in the sword with which he’d armed Harnak. He’d seen that as a way to ensure Harnak’s victory and avoid his avatar’s destruction, but it hadn’t worked out that way, and the sword touched by his essence now lay at the bottom of the sea. It would be centuries before he recovered from that, and until he did—or until the sword could be recovered from Korthrala’s keeping and returned to him—he had no personal access to that reality.


And if Sharnā has no "personal access" to that reality, how could he summon a demon to it to help his followers? And even if that was possible despite the lack of "personal access", there were SIX of his demons -- including a "true" Greater Servant, which required Sharnā to "hold it pent" while the binding ritual was performed -- which were faced in SB. And wouldn't holding it pent at least somewhat contradict the lack of "personal access"? Yet said personal access is apparently lost for "centuries"... and I really don't think anybody wants to suggest SB was set 200+ years after WRO.

On the other hand, Weber was careful to never mention Cassan in SB... nor the detachment from the Order of Tomanak that will shortly (as of the end of WMC) be withdrawn from Zarantha's academy. So it's certainly possible that it is actually set afterwards. But I would be hard-pressed to say it's been proven so, either. I think instead Weber doesn't want us to know when it's set at all, because there are just so many potential contradictions here that he may well have made at least one (likely still minor) continuity mistake. But if we never truly know exactly when it actually was supposed to be set, it's probably at bit easier to overlook -- or not even know for sure what it is.
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Re: MASSIVE SPOILER: Weber, you clever, clever *******
Post by runsforcelery   » Mon Feb 06, 2012 9:18 pm

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PeterZ wrote:This disproves your premise.

When Lilinara give Geyrfessa her sight back, she states point blank that the past cannot be changed. Wencit going back would have changed everything. He was a central figure in the Fall of the Old Empire. He shaped events. He couldn't do that if he was from the future. Besides, if that past required a character from he future to create it, then the characters that shape that time have no free will. All their choices will have been set in stone to create their present and Wencit's past.

As for Wencit going back in time, I got the impression that he could travel back to see the past happening but not actually live and interact in the past.


Michael Everett wrote:I downloaded War Maid's Choice this morning. I have finished it and... Oh, Weber, you clever, clever, clever bastard! (Please note, that was in a tone of pure admiration)

What has me so impressed? The revelation about Wencit.

Seriously. If you have not read the book, READ NO FURTHER





I MEAN IT!





SERIOUSLY, STOP NOW AND GO BACK TO THE FORUMS!





Fine...

Let me note several important facts that Weber has put into the War God series in no particular order...

The children of a Human/Hradani pairing will have super-long lifespans and probably gain the power of wizardry. however, such children are sterile.

Wencit has been alive for at least 12 centuries.

Wencit has a soft spot for Hradani.

Bazhell and Leanna are married, and Leanna is happy to have kids.

Bazhell can tap into true Wild Wizardry (but can't control it, only direct the blast).

Wizards can travel backwards in time under certain circumstances.

Wencit takes an extremely dim view of anyone targeting Leanna.

Wencit is holding at least one permanent glamour on himself, possibly more.

Has anyone else put these things together?

My current theory?

Wencit is the son of Bazhell and Leanna. Born under a different name, he was tutored in the arts of Wizardry by his older self and, when he became old enough, he travelled back in time (with Tomonak's aid) to set in motion the events which denied the Dark their planned victory in Kontovar and thus set in motion the events which would lead to the colonisation of Norfressa and eventually his birth...
STABLE TIME LOOP!

I haven't been able to find anything that disproves this, but... if I'm right... [admiration]oh David, you clever, clever, scheming, pre-planning bastard![/admiration]

Wow. Just... wow.



Uh, I don't mean to be difficult, and I ain't a-sayin' anyone is right or anyone is wrong, but:

(1) I have never said the Strictures of Ottovar preclude time travel. On the other hand, Wencit has said that while time travel is possible for some wizards, only a lunatic would do it, specifically because the past is mutable. (There are some sidebars to that which I don't think have been discussed in the books, but since I'm basing the magic in Orfressa on quantum physics with non-physical means of manipulation, you can probably figure out what some of them are.)

(2) The gods have never said that changing the past is impossible for them. What Tomanak has said more than once is that the gods will not change the past. It's a hard and fast rule they won't break (in that since, it is a case of "can't" be changed, but only because the rule is unbreakable) because there would be no way to control where it all ended if they started mucking around with time. It's sort of like Mutually Assured Destruction --- the same reason the gods don't casually go around intervening so powerfully in any given universe that they might destroy it. Don't forget that they are as captive to time as mortals now, and that even they have no way of knowing how many of the fractured universes resulting from Orr's splintered creation can be destroyed before the entire thing falls apart forever as unhealable.

I have to say it's interesting reading the speculation on this thread. Of course, like Wencit, I have absolutely no intention of telling you whether or not you're even warm.

I will say Toni has agreed that my next solo project with Baen with be the first volume of the series which brings the war between Kontovar and Norfressa into the open and ends it once and for all. At the moment, I'm projecting it as a 5-volume series, and in this case, I don't expect it to grow much beyond that because I have a very tightly plotted story arc already written down and ready to go.


"Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as Piglet came back from the dead.
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Re: MASSIVE SPOILER: Weber, you clever, clever *******
Post by thinkstoomuch   » Mon Feb 06, 2012 9:26 pm

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runsforcelery wrote:...snip...

I will say Toni has agreed that my next solo project with Baen with be the first volume of the series which brings the war between Kontovar and Norfressa into the open and ends it once and for all. At the moment, I'm projecting it as a 5-volume series, and in this case, I don't expect it to grow much beyond that because I have a very tightly plotted story arc already written down and ready to go.


Only comment, "Yeah, right." <huge grin>

Until the characters start doing some silly things and its 10 books later and only half way through the story.

That is ok I'll most likely still be buying them.

Couldn't stop the comment,
T2M
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Q: “How can something be worth more than it costs? Isn’t everything ‘worth’ what it costs?”
A: “No. That’s just the price. ...
Christopher Anvil from Top Line in "War Games"
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Re: MASSIVE SPOILER: Weber, you clever, clever *******
Post by PeterZ   » Mon Feb 06, 2012 10:38 pm

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Thanks for the clarification.

I do want to add that your prologue was wonderful. I had real problems with some issues on your multiverse explaination and how that would relate to differentiating the various universes through a moral prism. Your solution was superb. It really did heighten my enjoyment of the whole story so much more. Getting rid of those pesky issue allowed my suspension of disbelief to be far less strained.

Thank you! Now I am off for my first re-read.<skips happily away>

runsforcelery wrote:
Uh, I don't mean to be difficult, and I ain't a-sayin' anyone is right or anyone is wrong, but:

(1) I have never said the Strictures of Ottovar preclude time travel. On the other hand, Wencit has said that while time travel is possible for some wizards, only a lunatic would do it, specifically because the past is mutable. (There are some sidebars to that which I don't think have been discussed in the books, but since I'm basing the magic in Orfressa on quantum physics with non-physical means of manipulation, you can probably figure out what some of them are.)

(2) The gods have never said that changing the past is impossible for them. What Tomanak has said more than once is that the gods will not change the past. It's a hard and fast rule they won't break (in that since, it is a case of "can't" be changed, but only because the rule is unbreakable) because there would be no way to control where it all ended if they started mucking around with time. It's sort of like Mutually Assured Destruction --- the same reason the gods don't casually go around intervening so powerfully in any given universe that they might destroy it. Don't forget that they are as captive to time as mortals now, and that even they have no way of knowing how many of the fractured universes resulting from Orr's splintered creation can be destroyed before the entire thing falls apart forever as unhealable.

I have to say it's interesting reading the speculation on this thread. Of course, like Wencit, I have absolutely no intention of telling you whether or not you're even warm.

I will say Toni has agreed that my next solo project with Baen with be the first volume of the series which brings the war between Kontovar and Norfressa into the open and ends it once and for all. At the moment, I'm projecting it as a 5-volume series, and in this case, I don't expect it to grow much beyond that because I have a very tightly plotted story arc already written down and ready to go.
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Re: MASSIVE SPOILER: Weber, you clever, clever *******
Post by TJ5   » Tue Feb 07, 2012 7:15 am

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It's quite interesting how the same facts lead to different conclusions.
I noticed all the things mentioned throughout these first four books and my idea was that Wencit does hope/expect/knows about a child of theirs. But more in the sense of either finally transferring his burden to someone or, if I'm in a more sentimental mood, waiting for the love of his long life. Of course, the most likely reason is that he/she will be instrumental in the Final Battle.
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Re: MASSIVE SPOILER: Weber, you clever, clever *******
Post by FriarBob   » Tue Feb 07, 2012 11:11 am

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TJ5 wrote:Of course, the most likely reason is that he/she [the child] will be instrumental in the Final Battle.


Such has been my impression as well. It would also explain why the dark gods think of Bahzell as such a key component, yet admit that the key "revolves around him"... rather than his personal survival to the very end of the war being the necessary key.

Of course, I hope he survives anyway. I rather like him. But sometimes it doesn't work out that way.
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