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MASSIVE SPOILER: Weber, you clever, clever *******

Fans of Bahzell and Tomenack come on in! Let's talk about David's fantasy series and our favorite hradani!
MASSIVE SPOILER: Weber, you clever, clever *******
Post by Michael Everett   » Fri Feb 03, 2012 5:03 pm

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I downloaded War Maid's Choice this morning. I have finished it and... Oh, Weber, you clever, clever, clever bastard! (Please note, that was in a tone of pure admiration)

What has me so impressed? The revelation about Wencit.

Seriously. If you have not read the book, READ NO FURTHER





I MEAN IT!





SERIOUSLY, STOP NOW AND GO BACK TO THE FORUMS!





Fine...

Let me note several important facts that Weber has put into the War God series in no particular order...

The children of a Human/Hradani pairing will have super-long lifespans and probably gain the power of wizardry. however, such children are sterile.

Wencit has been alive for at least 12 centuries.

Wencit has a soft spot for Hradani.

Bazhell and Leanna are married, and Leanna is happy to have kids.

Bazhell can tap into true Wild Wizardry (but can't control it, only direct the blast).

Wizards can travel backwards in time under certain circumstances.

Wencit takes an extremely dim view of anyone targeting Leanna.

Wencit is holding at least one permanent glamour on himself, possibly more.

Has anyone else put these things together?

My current theory?

Wencit is the son of Bazhell and Leanna. Born under a different name, he was tutored in the arts of Wizardry by his older self and, when he became old enough, he travelled back in time (with Tomonak's aid) to set in motion the events which denied the Dark their planned victory in Kontovar and thus set in motion the events which would lead to the colonisation of Norfressa and eventually his birth...
STABLE TIME LOOP!

I haven't been able to find anything that disproves this, but... if I'm right... [admiration]oh David, you clever, clever, scheming, pre-planning bastard![/admiration]

Wow. Just... wow.
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Re: MASSIVE SPOILER: Weber, you clever, clever *******
Post by Skia   » Fri Feb 03, 2012 5:44 pm

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Right now I just don't see it, but that is more because of problems I see with it happening originally.

Honestly if Wencit hadn't strafed Kontovar and the refugees hadn't made it to Norfressa how likely would the ancestors of Bahzell all through the line for a thousand plus years and all the ancestors of Leena all come together as slaves under the wizards of Carnadosa and produce the two of them who then secretly produce the wild wizard Wencit. I guess I just have a hard time seeing it happen originally in Kontovar under the Carnadosan's control.

Now having said that it could be that time travel is more similar to what he described in the Apocalypse Troll where with time travel you go into someone else's past where the original history had something else prevent the Carnadosan's from winning completely.

It does seem likely Leena is pregnant or soon will be given Vaijon's comments at the end and I figured the child will be really important for the saving of the world.
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Re: MASSIVE SPOILER: Weber, you clever, clever *******
Post by Kytheros   » Sat Feb 04, 2012 7:50 am

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Okay, I can buy Wencit being half-hradani. At least, him being a pre-Fall-hradani/human halfbreed. That's something that's been floating around for what feels like forever.

What I don't buy is the time-traveling Wencit portion.
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Re: MASSIVE SPOILER: Weber, you clever, clever *******
Post by jaccairn   » Sat Feb 04, 2012 9:48 am

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I thought pretty much the same, though I see the young Wencit going back to a slightly different reality meaning that our Wencit came from a different reality, and that there is a sort of cascade of Wencits going back in time to make sure that certain things happen in lots of universes and that this tips the balance in favour of the light.
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Re: MASSIVE SPOILER: Weber, you clever, clever *******
Post by Gustav   » Sat Feb 04, 2012 12:45 pm

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Tomahawk has frequently said, he did not know, if Bahzel would win or loose specific battles, but it seems to me, that if wencit was to be bahzels son and travel back in time, would it have been necessary for bahzel to win those battles until he managed to get a human girl pregnant in order for it to be possible for wencit to exist
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Re: MASSIVE SPOILER: Weber, you clever, clever *******
Post by BrightSoul   » Sun Feb 05, 2012 6:52 pm

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I don't but the time loop thing either. It is far more likely that Wencit expects her child to help re-establish the Council of White Wizards. More of an heir than anything else. There were quite a few hints over the past two books of what is coming.
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Re: MASSIVE SPOILER: Weber, you clever, clever *******
Post by DrakBibliophile   » Sun Feb 05, 2012 8:07 pm

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The time loop is IMO unlikely. However, what's strange is that several times Wencit has *known* something that he can't have known.

In Sword Brother, he knew things about the hidden lair that he can't have known about.

In this book, he had placed a device that he used to teleport into the wizard's lair centuries ago. How did he know that he'd need to use that device?

IIRC the time loop idea violates info that David Weber has told us (both in the stories and in Snerkers Only) about time travel.

Since we're told that even the Gods had difficulty in seeing the future clearly, it's hard to understand how Wencit knows what he knows.

What the answer is, I don't know.






BrightSoul wrote:I don't but the time loop thing either. It is far more likely that Wencit expects her child to help re-establish the Council of White Wizards. More of an heir than anything else. There were quite a few hints over the past two books of what is coming.
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Re: MASSIVE SPOILER: Weber, you clever, clever *******
Post by Brom O'Berin   » Sun Feb 05, 2012 11:12 pm

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A few thoughts -

1. "Bazhell can tap into true Wild Wizardry (but can't control it, only direct the blast)." Not true - he can tap into the same universal energy source utilized by wild wizards, but can only use that energy in the same manner as the "God-energy" received from Tomanak. However, his capability to utilize the "wild" energy is limited, and he risks injury or death if he tries to channel too much or too often without recovery time.

2. All our former thoughts re SB occurring shortly after WRO are not correct - from Varnaythus' mention of Tremala, SB now follows WMC in the Bahzell timeline, and is at least 7 years after WRO.

3. For Wencit to place the kairsalhain did not take time travel, just foretelling or prophecy abilities. I suspect he also used it to monitor any and all shields placed on the local by Varnaythus (in addition to guiding his "jump"). Wencit seems to be very methodical - if his foretelling was not really clear, he may have planted kairsalhains at multiple locations.

4. Given the knowledge that Wencit has shown of the Carnadosan plans, one might wonder if he did not also leave kairsalhains behind in Kontovar ...

5. A human/hradrani cross is explained to have a lifespan of around 450 years, but his far exceeds that figure (1200+ and counting). Not truly explained, but maybe due to being a wild wizard. Of note, we don't truly have an average lifespan for wand wizards as yet.


DrakBibliophile wrote:The time loop is IMO unlikely. However, what's strange is that several times Wencit has *known* something that he can't have known.

In Sword Brother, he knew things about the hidden lair that he can't have known about.

In this book, he had placed a device that he used to teleport into the wizard's lair centuries ago. How did he know that he'd need to use that device?

IIRC the time loop idea violates info that David Weber has told us (both in the stories and in Snerkers Only) about time travel.

Since we're told that even the Gods had difficulty in seeing the future clearly, it's hard to understand how Wencit knows what he knows.

What the answer is, I don't know.






BrightSoul wrote:I don't but the time loop thing either. It is far more likely that Wencit expects her child to help re-establish the Council of White Wizards. More of an heir than anything else. There were quite a few hints over the past two books of what is coming.
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Re: MASSIVE SPOILER: Weber, you clever, clever *******
Post by Skia   » Mon Feb 06, 2012 12:06 am

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Brom O'Berin wrote:A few thoughts -

5. A human/hradrani cross is explained to have a lifespan of around 450 years, but his far exceeds that figure (1200+ and counting). Not truly explained, but maybe due to being a wild wizard. Of note, we don't truly have an average lifespan for wand wizards as yet.





Out of curiosity where did you get your numbers for half-hradini lifespans? The only thing I remember from War God's Own was that they lived longer than half-elves and I seemed to recall reading that half-elves lived about 400, though I can't remember positively.

Also I don't know how old Wencit is, but one of the pearls talking about the fall of Kontovar mentions that Wencit was 300+ years old before taking over leadership of the white council and was in charge of it for decades (elasticity noted) before the war started. He is certainly at least a few centuries older than a mere 1200 years.
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Re: MASSIVE SPOILER: Weber, you clever, clever *******
Post by Emo Otaku   » Mon Feb 06, 2012 8:09 am

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One thing you are ignoring is that Time travel is forbbiden under the Strictures of Kontovar (I think that is the right name)

I doubt that Wencit would have spent the last fifteen hundred years enforcing these rules only to break one of the most important himself
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