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What about Kontovar?

Fans of Bahzell and Tomenack come on in! Let's talk about David's fantasy series and our favorite hradani!
Re: What about Kontovar?
Post by Charles83   » Mon Jan 16, 2012 2:34 pm

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FriarBob wrote:
Charles83 wrote:I think we can forget about Kontovar, my reason is simple RFC doesn't write offensively, all the novels always end with the good guys playing defense, [...]

I hope he makes an offensive series, but so far, every book RFC write is always put on the defense side of things, he never write about a good honest offense, well so far this books look good on that side, he hasn't put his typical good guys=300 people bad guys=infinite number.


Well first off it's kinda hard for the good guys to have a REASON to go on the offense. Usually you have to be the bad guy, going for unjustified conquest or greed or some other malevolent purpose to be going on offense. About the only way there could be a difference would be for the good guys to be some faction of good guys within an evil and corrupt empire (or perhaps outside of it) who build up their forces specifically to bring down the bad guys and install good rulers in their place. (Of course, pretty much every bad guy actually thinks that too...)

But even then, he still has plenty of books with the good guys going on offense in some fashion or another. Either you have a faulty memory or you haven't read every single book he's written. Let's see:

This whole series -- every book in this series ends with Bahzell on the offense in some fashion or another, attacking AND defeating some vile plot by the dark gods.

Armageddon Inheritance -- pure offense, at least on Pardur. They couldn't just defend the "heretics" they had to attack and defeat the Temple to get access to the command computer (so they could go home).

Excalibur Alternative -- had a mix, though at first the good guys were forced to fight FOR the bad guys, and only got the opportunity to fight against them (both defensively AND with preemptive offensive strikes) later in the book.

Apocalypse Troll -- pretty much pure offense. Only exception would be the initial defense of Earth by trying to intercept the enemy fleet. After that, there was plenty of time when they were preparing to fight, but it was always offensive in nature with only the secrecy being defensive in nature. Oh and it ended with complete victory over the immediate enemy and strong indications of strongly-expected butt-whooping of the bad guys later.

The Honor of the Queen -- pretty heavy on defense, yes, but it did end with some (off-camera) offense to conquer Masada.

War of Honor -- pretty heavy on offense, though it did end with the bad guys temporarily "winning".

The Shadow of Saganami -- pretty heavy on defense, yes, but it ends with a preemptive offensive attack on an enemy that wasn't yet prepared for its own attack on them. That's self-defense, yes, but it's still an offensive attack.

At All Costs -- plenty of attacks by the good guys, and though it did end with a massive defensive battle the rest of the book was VERY heavy on attacks by Honor against Haven.

Pretty much the entire Prince Rodger series -- this was almost exactly the situation I describe above, in which some good guys have no choice but to go on the offensive, initially just to survive and move through territory they had to cross, but also later to bring down a corrupt and evil government that had illegally seized power in their homeland.

By Heresies Distressed -- this entire book is almost nothing BUT Charis on the offense against Corisande. And they don't end on defense... they end with wrap-up after a mostly-successful offensive campaign.

How Firm a Foundation -- Not a huge amount of military action in this book, true, but there isn't a single LICK of defense (outside of some very small, basically individual actions) on the part of the "main" good guys (Charis). Everything they do is either preparation for future conflict or outright attack. Now the book does end with some defensive actions for Siddarmark and a narrow escape of the good guys from an assassination attempt. But up to this point Siddarmark wasn't really the "good guys", they were merely "neutral in our favor". For that matter, Princess Irys and Daivyn were at least technically still "bad guys" until very nearly the end of the book.

Now I always love watching the good guys attack the bad guys (especially when they win) but you can't claim it never happens in Weber's books, nor can you claim that the books "always end with the good guys playing defense".


Check really what you are saying 1 offensive action don't mean that the series is made with an offensive mindset, the armaggedon inheritance is 1 of the few i havent read yet, now this whole series is set from the perspective of defense, bahzell and company are always responding or reacting to what the dark gods do, yes he attack but after the dark god has made his plans, in little his personal attacks are just a way of defending the good, he doesnt have an offensive mindset like lets conquer kontovar who is a nest of the dark gods is more like let me defend this territory by attacking those plots of the dark gods that i discover, if he doesnt discover a dark god plot then no history, that means is a defensive mindset, the bad guys need to do or plan something so bahzell can attack them.

Excalibur alternative, the Honorverse and safehold are series where the mindset is defensive, there are some offensive actions but in the end is more like the bad guys will self destroy while we hold, yes in the honorverse there was some offense but the focus was always little guy vs big guy, first manticore (little guy) vs haven(big guy) now is GA [manticore and company(little guy)] vs SLN and alignment (big guy), in the safehold series 5 to 10% of the planet against the other 90% and all of what they talk is how they will prevent the church from invading charis, rthey never talk about a real honest good for all offense, and you can say its because of how the world is made but surprise the one that made the world think in defensive terms, so he made the world in specific to make the war on safehold a little guy vs big guy thing again, the excalibur alternative ends in exactly the same position they have infiltrated the big guy and they are ready to cause the big guy to implode while they defend themselves with superior technology, not a good honest offensive.

While there are some offensive action on some of the books the entire mindset and creation of every other universe is defensive, in this specific universe is still unknown, I mean here on the war god universe, you could say that the good guys have been recovering for the last 1200 years after the fall, and at 1 point when they recover enough they will start offensive actions against the dark god who claimed Kontovar because the Gods on the good side want this universe to belong to the good side.

You can say and point the books where offensive action has been taken, but look at the mindset and how the universe is created, in the end the good guys are always in the defensive, the only moment when that rule was going to be broken, when really the good guys could take a really good offensive action against the bad guys was in the honorverse and what did RFC made at that point, Oyster Bay the surprise attack who made manticore again play defense and make only very restricted attacks against the SLN so again good guys playing defense.

You can point to me single books and single actions but in reality RFC never has made manticore launch a war againts haven to break them, they were on the defensive and haven started the war, in safehold yes merlin wants to break the control of the church but he is doing it by making charis an extremely tough nut to crack, in the dahak series the first 2 books the protagonist discover new technology and do all the stuff to defend earth from the misterious attackers, in the excalibur alternative they dont attack openly they leave the enemy to attack them then they will do covert attacks to break the empire and while that happens they will hold, in little the worlds are made with a defensive mindset.
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Re: What about Kontovar?
Post by FriarBob   » Mon Jan 16, 2012 3:41 pm

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Charles83 wrote:You can point to me single books and single actions but in reality RFC never has made manticore launch a war againts haven to break them, they were on the defensive and haven started the war, in safehold yes merlin wants to break the control of the church but he is doing it by making charis an extremely tough nut to crack, in the dahak series the first 2 books the protagonist discover new technology and do all the stuff to defend earth from the misterious attackers, in the excalibur alternative they dont attack openly they leave the enemy to attack them then they will do covert attacks to break the empire and while that happens they will hold, in little the worlds are made with a defensive mindset.


Well first off you said "every book". I pointed out that not "every" book was always that way.

Second, you apparently didn't read my points about the philosophical reasons the "good guys" almost can't be the aggressors. There are rare exceptions, but they are exceptions. So while yeah "in theory" he could have set the world up differently, it's not as easy as you seem to think. For that matter, even if Norfressa had spent the last 1200 years preparing to regain their losses, that still would be at least semi-defensive in nature, because they didn't attack the enemy first. (It also wouldn't be very believable for vagabond refugees who escaped with little more than the clothes on their back to make such plans for, oh, about 200 years or so... by which time everybody who remembered Kontovar was dead (with the obvious exceptions of the Elves and Wencit). And that makes it more than a bit hard to sustain some sort of "recapture the glory days" as a motivation. As for "wanting the gods of light to win", well, you'd hope that they would, but apparently far too few do.

If you want a series in which the good guys are the aggressors, then if you haven't read it you need to read the Prince Roger books -- officially known as the "Empire of Man" series -- i.e. March Upcountry, March to the Sea, March to the Stars, and We Few. Other that that, there aren't too many options available even from other authors. And it's not just because nobody ever wants to write them... it's simply because it's hard to come up with a believable justification for it.

And if you don't have that, the series is going to fall flat on its face and lose its readers (or at least the general public, outside of a small group of hard-core fanatics). I for one want David making books that sell well, because that increases the chances of us reading more of them! :)
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Re: What about Kontovar?
Post by Charles83   » Mon Jan 16, 2012 7:10 pm

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I know and i don't mind the style but i doubt that we will have any info about kontovar because of the defensive mindset of the books, still there is a chance specially since in this series we have a good definition of good and bad we know what god is good and what god is bad so having the good guys putting offensive actions wont make the books weird.

I mean in all the other series is humanity own values what define who is good or bad, so we see that most of the agressors in RFC books are the bad guys because thats how our moral values works, if they attack for greed, arrogance or any other motive they are bad and those that fight that war to defend or for freedom are good, that means that to have good selling books you usually make the good guys those that defend.

But the difference in the war god universe is that good and bad are defined, we know the fall of kontovar was a big victory for the bad guys, at least I understood from Tomanak explanation to bahzell in the wind rider's oath, but this universe hasnt been defined yet, some has been defined because he explained that some of the summoned creatures come from universe were Evil won.

So what i mean is that we can still have a very good offensive war from the good guys to reconquer Kontovar and destroy temples and altars that the evil gods have over there so this universe could be a win for the good guys. Because this time around the people who attack are going in to destroy Evil God's churches and altars so they cant invoke demons and creatures of evil to corrupt humanity, of course there will be political problems and nations can bicker at each other but the series is called War God and thats Tomanak so I think we can see more about the champions and the adventures they have that political bickering and fighting between nations.

[edit] I just reread your post friarbob and worlds where the gods are clearly stated and where sides are clearly defined permit the good guys to take offensive action, and the author have a little more freedom, yes usually in worlds where good or bad are only POV depending on the character and their morals is harder but in fantasy worlds with Gods of good and evil the author have a lot more freedom, thats why i still hope that if we are going to have news from kontovar it will be when all this nations jump and invade it to liberate it from the stain of the Dark Gods, so far it looks like its going to happen.
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Re: What about Kontovar?
Post by Brom O'Berin   » Mon Jan 16, 2012 9:58 pm

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There is a reason that these are known as the "Norfressa" cycle books. Not saying our current protagonists will not be around if/when a return to Kontovar occurs ... but that is up to MWW.

cyzeee.m9 wrote:Hi all!

I'm knew to this forum and this is my first post, so if this topic was covered erlier plese disregard it.

I was wondering about Kontovar, that is about possibility of Kontovaran invasion on Norfressa or maybe if Bahzell's new mission will be there or maybe both.
We have seen attempts of Dark Gods to destabilise Norfressa making it esier target.
We have also seen indications of dark wizadry amongst Purple Lords that leads to possible Kontovaran influence.
I know that Wencit controls spells that can lay waste to the whole continent but there is a possibility that Cornadossans have found way to counter that spells.
And there is the special attention in Bahzell and Brandark and in their removal.
There is obviusly something big going on and B&B are going to be there.
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Re: What about Kontovar?
Post by FriarBob   » Tue Jan 17, 2012 1:31 pm

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Charles83 wrote:[edit] I just reread your post friarbob and worlds where the gods are clearly stated and where sides are clearly defined permit the good guys to take offensive action, and the author have a little more freedom, yes usually in worlds where good or bad are only POV depending on the character and their morals is harder but in fantasy worlds with Gods of good and evil the author have a lot more freedom, thats why i still hope that if we are going to have news from kontovar it will be when all this nations jump and invade it to liberate it from the stain of the Dark Gods, so far it looks like its going to happen.


Yeah, you got my point it seems. You have to come up with a justification for the "good guys" to be on the offense. Now sometimes you actually can fit that into our US value system such that the reader will "buy it". But it's not easy. If you can't, then you have to rewrite the rules in some way... and you are exactly right that David could write the rules for this series differently if he wanted. So far, though, he either hasn't or isn't ready to go there.
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Re: What about Kontovar?
Post by Charles83   » Wed Jan 18, 2012 3:00 am

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FriarBob wrote:
Charles83 wrote:[edit] I just reread your post friarbob and worlds where the gods are clearly stated and where sides are clearly defined permit the good guys to take offensive action, and the author have a little more freedom, yes usually in worlds where good or bad are only POV depending on the character and their morals is harder but in fantasy worlds with Gods of good and evil the author have a lot more freedom, thats why i still hope that if we are going to have news from kontovar it will be when all this nations jump and invade it to liberate it from the stain of the Dark Gods, so far it looks like its going to happen.


Yeah, you got my point it seems. You have to come up with a justification for the "good guys" to be on the offense. Now sometimes you actually can fit that into our US value system such that the reader will "buy it". But it's not easy. If you can't, then you have to rewrite the rules in some way... and you are exactly right that David could write the rules for this series differently if he wanted. So far, though, he either hasn't or isn't ready to go there.


He is getting there I mean the first step for the good side is to unite the races, right now the God of lights are helping the Hradani so they can be accepted by other nations at the same time that all the political stuff is coming to at last make a unified nation of hradani.

I mean after hradani have a unified nation and they are accepted by all the other races or at least by the dwarves, humans and halflings, the gods can start thinking about a return to kontovar because a unified force of several nations will be possible specially if some of the militant orders of the gods lead the way. So what we are seeing is the first step, that step is healing the rift between the hradani and the rest of the races of man, this could take few years or generations but its being done.

The second step and all the rest will come later when at last the gods are ready and when they see that is time to define if this universe is going to be for the good guys or the bad, at that point a Holy war or a Holy crusade can be declared and then the Gods of the good side will point their militant order to destroy the altars and churches of the Evil Gods so this gods can be banished from this world and the world can be declared a win for the good side.

BTW I can tell you this is a possible scenario because I have seen and played some of this same scenarios on D&D (dungeons and dragons) and if you see the whole setting you can see some similarities with D&D, some of those are Races, Classes, and some of the special abilities, in specific the ability of rage is from the class Barbarian in D&D and it works both ways, when the player controls it, it can be used for greater good, and when the player fail a willpower check the GM (game master) can make him do all class of disaster and bad things.

I wont get any deeper on D&D because not everyone follows it, but I tell you this friarbob we know, because Tomanak said it to bahzell, that some universes are already defined, in some the good guys won, in others the bad guys won, so making a war to conquer kontovar because the time to decide who is going to win the good side or the bad is coming wont be so weird. Of course I'm not saying this will happen tomorrow, maybe the 5th book will be in 400 or 1000 years from now when things are more advanced and at that point is when the war for kontovar will start, probably at that point bahzell will be part of the legends that are sung by bards (another D&D class).
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