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Isvaria and Wind Rider's Oath

Fans of Bahzell and Tomenack come on in! Let's talk about David's fantasy series and our favorite hradani!
Re: Isvaria and Wind Rider's Oath
Post by Rook   » Wed Apr 06, 2011 9:44 am

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The only reply I could give to this is that they don't get ahead of the sum total, but it doesn't matter.

I don't think the idea that there is an equal number of bad and good instances is accurate. Since it is the races of man that determine the fate of each parallel universe, then it follows that the probability that an individual will make a certain decision will be reflected across the parallel universes. For example: If there was a 0.00001% chance of Bahzell buddying up to Harnak and worshiping Sharna at the beginning of the series, then in only 0.00001% of all possible parallel universes will that actually occur. It is certainly possible that it will occur somewhere in the universes, but in the vast majority of the universes it doesn't occur.

Since the outcome is determined by the weight of all of the individual probabilities, then all the gods can do is influence the probabilities as best they can by influencing the choices of the natives of each parallel universe. Thus, while the Gods may live in some weird all encompassing now and know how it will likely turn out, they still have to make the best effort they can to get the proper result.

This also suggests that the gods have absolutely zero ability to choose. Since the gods are exerting influence in every possible scenario, they aren't actually making any choices, just exerting a force across all the parallel universes. If you take it out to the extreme, you could say that the gods are only automotons or forces of nature, incapable of thought or reason.

To be honest, I like the Apocalypse Troll approach to parallel universes much better too.

thinkstoomuch wrote:Which always brings up in my mind a question. How do you ever get ahead in the sum total, for the gods anyway?

I mean for every instance of the good guys getting ahead there will be other instances where the bad guys do. I like the explanation in Apocalypse Troll much better than the fantasy gods scenario.

But not really on topic my apologies,
T2M
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Re: Isvaria and Wind Rider's Oath
Post by PeterZ   » Wed Apr 06, 2011 12:08 pm

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Rook wrote:The only reply I could give to this is that they don't get ahead of the sum total, but it doesn't matter.

I don't think the idea that there is an equal number of bad and good instances is accurate. Since it is the races of man that determine the fate of each parallel universe, then it follows that the probability that an individual will make a certain decision will be reflected across the parallel universes. For example: If there was a 0.00001% chance of Bahzell buddying up to Harnak and worshiping Sharna at the beginning of the series, then in only 0.00001% of all possible parallel universes will that actually occur. It is certainly possible that it will occur somewhere in the universes, but in the vast majority of the universes it doesn't occur.

Since the outcome is determined by the weight of all of the individual probabilities, then all the gods can do is influence the probabilities as best they can by influencing the choices of the natives of each parallel universe. Thus, while the Gods may live in some weird all encompassing now and know how it will likely turn out, they still have to make the best effort they can to get the proper result.

This also suggests that the gods have absolutely zero ability to choose. Since the gods are exerting influence in every possible scenario, they aren't actually making any choices, just exerting a force across all the parallel universes. If you take it out to the extreme, you could say that the gods are only automotons or forces of nature, incapable of thought or reason.

To be honest, I like the Apocalypse Troll approach to parallel universes much better too.

thinkstoomuch wrote:Which always brings up in my mind a question. How do you ever get ahead in the sum total, for the gods anyway?

I mean for every instance of the good guys getting ahead there will be other instances where the bad guys do. I like the explanation in Apocalypse Troll much better than the fantasy gods scenario.

But not really on topic my apologies,
T2M



If each world represents possible decisions, then our choices actually wouldn't matter. What would matter is the possible choice we could make, because every potential choice would be represented somewhere in the multiverse. If the multiverse is described as having multiple indetical unverses whose number equals the probability that a given choice is made, then the ultimate number of universes that eventually go to each side is preordained at the time of creation. All the gods would know the ultimate winner.

For our choice to matter, making that choice would have to eliminate those potential alternatives. In other words each choice would reduce the multiverse by the number of choices NOT taken. Each decision would be a divergent point that defines the essential difference between two similar universes. In the end then, the winning side is the one that rules the final remaining universe.

Unfortunately, that is not what was described in the books or the infodumps. What was described does not adequately address the importance of humanity and their abiltiy to choose.
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Re: Isvaria and Wind Rider's Oath
Post by Donnachaidh   » Wed Apr 06, 2011 1:23 pm

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This is based on an actual theory. The idea is that for every decision made, another universe exists that a different choice is made and proceeds on that basis. This leads to there being an infinite number of universes.

As far as the result being preordained, we only know as much as Bazhell knows not what the gods know. Also because they know what the result will be means that they do have to influence the universes, if they don't then the result will be different and then the result is not preordained. (Yes, I know that is an infinite logic loop that there really is no answer to)

PeterZ wrote:If each world represents possible decisions, then our choices actually wouldn't matter. What would matter is the possible choice we could make, because every potential choice would be represented somewhere in the multiverse. If the multiverse is described as having multiple indetical unverses whose number equals the probability that a given choice is made, then the ultimate number of universes that eventually go to each side is preordained at the time of creation. All the gods would know the ultimate winner.

For our choice to matter, making that choice would have to eliminate those potential alternatives. In other words each choice would reduce the multiverse by the number of choices NOT taken. Each decision would be a divergent point that defines the essential difference between two similar universes. In the end then, the winning side is the one that rules the final remaining universe.

Unfortunately, that is not what was described in the books or the infodumps. What was described does not adequately address the importance of humanity and their abiltiy to choose.
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Re: Isvaria and Wind Rider's Oath
Post by PeterZ   » Wed Apr 06, 2011 2:21 pm

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Donnachaidh wrote:This is based on an actual theory. The idea is that for every decision made, another universe exists that a different choice is made and proceeds on that basis. This leads to there being an infinite number of universes.

As far as the result being preordained, we only know as much as Bazhell knows not what the gods know. Also because they know what the result will be means that they do have to influence the universes, if they don't then the result will be different and then the result is not preordained. (Yes, I know that is an infinite logic loop that there really is no answer to)



That doesn't describe the conflict between good and evil. Infitine possibilities/worlds simply means there are enough worlds to satisfy both sides. If not satisfy, then to fully utilize each side's available resources. Why compete at all?

Because the sides do compete, then that implies the possibilities are finite; imensely large but finite. Some decisions then simply will not be made. Bahzell raised as he was but turning into a rapist simply will not happen in any of the possibilities. The potential for his being a rapist had he been raised differently MAY exist.

None of this explains where the energy to create these worlds would come from. Tomanak states that even the gods were not omnipotent, they were limited in both their capacity as well as what they were allowed to do.

So, where does the energy to create the universe come from? Does it come from the essences of the gods themselves? When evil choices are made, does that mean that the essence of the good gods get sucked into make that new universe? If so, then that implies that being good is simply a self defense for evil in order not to be subsumed into the new universe. The essence of goodness in the universe, then, is ultimate evil. Kind of muddies the idea of morality. We are good or evil only to avoid destruction.

Does the energy for a new universe created by evil choices come from evil gods? If so, then as evil wins they lose more energy to the universes they create. This implies that as each side succeeds they lose marginal capacity to succeed in the future. Ultimately, then the choices humanity makes don't matter. What matters is the absolute endurance of the gods which is known from the outset.

Suppose the energy comes some infinite well of energy independant of the gods. The winning side for any given decision gets to tune that energy to make it useful only for that side in the form of a universe. OK, better....but why go through all that trouble? Fight each other directly from the beginning. Let the winning side control all that energy without creating sentient beings that are unecessary to the ultimate struggle.

None of these paradigms are satisfying to me. I still love the stories, but the metaphysics leaves me unimpressed.

The only paradigm that comes close to making sense in the context of these stories, is that the multiverse was created by God the Creator to teach the gods, his children, a lesson. The rebelling gods (evil) and the gods defending His will(good) both need to learn something. The stories are all part of that process.
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Re: Isvaria and Wind Rider's Oath
Post by Donnachaidh   » Wed Apr 06, 2011 2:46 pm

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You seem to have lost sight of the fact that THIS IS FICTION.

PeterZ wrote:That doesn't describe the conflict between good and evil. Infitine possibilities/worlds simply means there are enough worlds to satisfy both sides. If not satisfy, then to fully utilize each side's available resources. Why compete at all?

Because the sides do compete, then that implies the possibilities are finite; imensely large but finite. Some decisions then simply will not be made. Bahzell raised as he was but turning into a rapist simply will not happen in any of the possibilities. The potential for his being a rapist had he been raised differently MAY exist.

None of this explains where the energy to create these worlds would come from. Tomanak states that even the gods were not omnipotent, they were limited in both their capacity as well as what they were allowed to do.

So, where does the energy to create the universe come from? Does it come from the essences of the gods themselves? When evil choices are made, does that mean that the essence of the good gods get sucked into make that new universe? If so, then that implies that being good is simply a self defense for evil in order not to be subsumed into the new universe. The essence of goodness in the universe, then, is ultimate evil. Kind of muddies the idea of morality. We are good or evil only to avoid destruction.

Does the energy for a new universe created by evil choices come from evil gods? If so, then as evil wins they lose more energy to the universes they create. This implies that as each side succeeds they lose marginal capacity to succeed in the future. Ultimately, then the choices humanity makes don't matter. What matters is the absolute endurance of the gods which is known from the outset.

Suppose the energy comes some infinite well of energy independant of the gods. The winning side for any given decision gets to tune that energy to make it useful only for that side in the form of a universe. OK, better....but why go through all that trouble? Fight each other directly from the beginning. Let the winning side control all that energy without creating sentient beings that are unecessary to the ultimate struggle.

None of these paradigms are satisfying to me. I still love the stories, but the metaphysics leaves me unimpressed.

The only paradigm that comes close to making sense in the context of these stories, is that the multiverse was created by God the Creator to teach the gods, his children, a lesson. The rebelling gods (evil) and the gods defending His will(good) both need to learn something. The stories are all part of that process.
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Re: Isvaria and Wind Rider's Oath
Post by PeterZ   » Wed Apr 06, 2011 2:58 pm

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Donnachaidh wrote:You seem to have lost sight of the fact that THIS IS FICTION.



Not really. The stories are a wonderful read. Doesn't mean that I like everything about them. David is usually very good about the internal consistency of his foundational assumptions. So when he is less than his usuall self, I notice.
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Re: Isvaria and Wind Rider's Oath
Post by Rook   » Wed Apr 06, 2011 3:18 pm

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LOL, I think you are badly over thinking this. The 'parallel universes' used in fiction writings don't really reflect what the actual theories say about them. The phrase 'Parallel Universe' invokes a whole slew of ideas and concepts that fiction writers took and ran with, with very little concern for any actual facts. Fiction version of parallel universes (or Multiverse) has become so widely used and popular that authors now just slap the concept in without worrying about all of the paradoxes involved. (Such as gods who are automotons or where the energy comes from to create the durn things.)

At the end of the day, it makes for a great story. Since I am already suspending my disbelief enough to enjoy a tale about wizards and Hradani, I have no problem extending it to a commonly used (if very inaccurate) concept of parallel universes.

PeterZ wrote:
That doesn't describe the conflict between good and evil. Infitine possibilities/worlds simply means there are enough worlds to satisfy both sides. If not satisfy, then to fully utilize each side's available resources. Why compete at all?

Because the sides do compete, then that implies the possibilities are finite; imensely large but finite. Some decisions then simply will not be made. Bahzell raised as he was but turning into a rapist simply will not happen in any of the possibilities. The potential for his being a rapist had he been raised differently MAY exist.

None of this explains where the energy to create these worlds would come from. Tomanak states that even the gods were not omnipotent, they were limited in both their capacity as well as what they were allowed to do.

So, where does the energy to create the universe come from? Does it come from the essences of the gods themselves? When evil choices are made, does that mean that the essence of the good gods get sucked into make that new universe? If so, then that implies that being good is simply a self defense for evil in order not to be subsumed into the new universe. The essence of goodness in the universe, then, is ultimate evil. Kind of muddies the idea of morality. We are good or evil only to avoid destruction.

Does the energy for a new universe created by evil choices come from evil gods? If so, then as evil wins they lose more energy to the universes they create. This implies that as each side succeeds they lose marginal capacity to succeed in the future. Ultimately, then the choices humanity makes don't matter. What matters is the absolute endurance of the gods which is known from the outset.

Suppose the energy comes some infinite well of energy independant of the gods. The winning side for any given decision gets to tune that energy to make it useful only for that side in the form of a universe. OK, better....but why go through all that trouble? Fight each other directly from the beginning. Let the winning side control all that energy without creating sentient beings that are unecessary to the ultimate struggle.

None of these paradigms are satisfying to me. I still love the stories, but the metaphysics leaves me unimpressed.

The only paradigm that comes close to making sense in the context of these stories, is that the multiverse was created by God the Creator to teach the gods, his children, a lesson. The rebelling gods (evil) and the gods defending His will(good) both need to learn something. The stories are all part of that process.
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Re: Isvaria and Wind Rider's Oath
Post by PeterZ   » Wed Apr 06, 2011 3:38 pm

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Rook wrote:LOL, I think you are badly over thinking this. The 'parallel universes' used in fiction writings don't really reflect what the actual theories say about them. The phrase 'Parallel Universe' invokes a whole slew of ideas and concepts that fiction writers took and ran with, with very little concern for any actual facts. Fiction version of parallel universes (or Multiverse) has become so widely used and popular that authors now just slap the concept in without worrying about all of the paradoxes involved. (Such as gods who are automotons or where the energy comes from to create the durn things.)

At the end of the day, it makes for a great story. Since I am already suspending my disbelief enough to enjoy a tale about wizards and Hradani, I have no problem extending it to a commonly used (if very inaccurate) concept of parallel universes.



Probably true...no, definitely true. Just as true as it is for all the Honorverse posters speculating over the efficacy of the various fictional warship classes. All of us like David's internal consistency and can usually extrapolate on them pretty far. Techheads, history buffs and all the rest of us have our own interests to extrapolate/analyze in his stories. That's part of the fun of reading Weber and posting about our musings.
Last edited by PeterZ on Wed Apr 20, 2011 10:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Isvaria and Wind Rider's Oath
Post by Jay6722   » Wed Apr 06, 2011 11:39 pm

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Well, this dicusion has taken a intresting turn. unfortunately I don't have the patients right now to work my way through all of you theories. I might some time this weekend.
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Re: Isvaria and Wind Rider's Oath
Post by Jaxomfaux   » Mon Apr 18, 2011 9:34 pm

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maybe my memory of the books is innaccurate but I think you all are adding way too much into this.

Tomanak told Bahzel he couldn't understand the full implications and used the analogy of the universe being composed of many cities and the gods fighting over the cities. then said that there was no "time" for gods and that it was the mortals choices at the moment that created "time" and history.

what i got out of that is: there's multiple WORLDS not universes, therefore no parallel dimensions.

nowhere does it say each action has an equal and opposite reaction, it actually says the mortal choice creates reality out of the possibilities in that moment. which is why mortals are important and the gods battle over their ideals, because the more "Evil or good" choices made that becomes the standard of reality in that world.

as for the original question. I assume, as others already have said, that Isvaria was busy, out of place, or letting Tomanak handle it for her.
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