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Isvaria and Wind Rider's Oath

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Isvaria and Wind Rider's Oath
Post by Jay6722   » Tue Mar 29, 2011 9:16 pm

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My question is why wasn't there a champion of Isvaria helping Bahzell and company? After all Krahana is Isvaria's pet hate. I would think Isvaria would do everything in her power to get one of her champions to help stop any operation that involves followers of Krahana.
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Re: Isvaria and Wind Rider's Oath
Post by WiseMan999   » Wed Mar 30, 2011 11:04 am

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Off the top of my head, maybe she didn't have any champions close enough. They don't exaxctly have an unlimited number, and they can't predict the future. Also, it wasn't clear until Bazhell attacked Jerghar on the plains (near Warm Springs) that Krahana was involved, just that it was the Dark Gods. They can see the possibilities, but they cannot see definitively what is going to happen or who will be involved. Judging by the Webspinner's actions too, its possible Krahana may have been concealing her presence. DW seems to be concentrating on just Tomanak (out of the Light Gods), with the only exceptions I can think of being Lillinara - which was kind of mandatory given the plot - and Chesmirsa in Oath of Swords. Maybe it just never occured to him.
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Re: Isvaria and Wind Rider's Oath
Post by Jay6722   » Wed Mar 30, 2011 8:42 pm

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The problem with you argument WiseMan is that when you get close enough to a given moment in mortal experience you move from possibilities to probabilities. A god can see these probabilities and try to get his/her followers into position to do something about each probability.

WiseMan999 wrote:Off the top of my head, maybe she didn't have any champions close enough. They don't exaxctly have an unlimited number, and they can't predict the future. Also, it wasn't clear until Bazhell attacked Jerghar on the plains (near Warm Springs) that Krahana was involved, just that it was the Dark Gods. They can see the possibilities, but they cannot see definitively what is going to happen or who will be involved. Judging by the Webspinner's actions too, its possible Krahana may have been concealing her presence. DW seems to be concentrating on just Tomanak (out of the Light Gods), with the only exceptions I can think of being Lillinara - which was kind of mandatory given the plot - and Chesmirsa in Oath of Swords. Maybe it just never occured to him.
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Re: Isvaria and Wind Rider's Oath
Post by WiseMan999   » Thu Mar 31, 2011 10:14 am

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You have a point, Jay, but the question is when that point is. There are only 20 Champions of Tomanak in all of Norfressa, and from what I can gather he seems to be one of the more active gods. Presumably then Champions are thin on the ground, and Isvaria may not have had a Champion close enough to get there before events spiralled out of control at the point she could see the probabilities clearly enough to justify moving.

It is also possible that she allowed Tomanak to take the lead this time, as he had 2 Champions handy. The Gods of Light are supposed to be the ones who work together after all, this co-operation of the Dark Gods is unusual.
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Re: Isvaria and Wind Rider's Oath
Post by Rook   » Thu Mar 31, 2011 11:55 am

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There is also the possibility that Krahana has been keeping Isvaria's champions busy elsewhere. Since the God's ability to 'predict' the future is reduced mainly to probability and statistics, the fact the Dark Gods don't work well together makes the probability of any future cooperative project between them lower than a more overt threat from a single dark god.

This is all vapor reasoning since there is zero background on any of this, but I don't think it is terribly odd that Tomanak's champions were the only ones in the area to deal with this problem. Both of them were already there to deal with separate missions: Bahzell to open the Hradani to recruitment to the gods and tell them about the change to the rage, and Kaeritha was already in the area to deal with the War Maids.

WiseMan999 wrote:You have a point, Jay, but the question is when that point is. There are only 20 Champions of Tomanak in all of Norfressa, and from what I can gather he seems to be one of the more active gods. Presumably then Champions are thin on the ground, and Isvaria may not have had a Champion close enough to get there before events spiralled out of control at the point she could see the probabilities clearly enough to justify moving.

It is also possible that she allowed Tomanak to take the lead this time, as he had 2 Champions handy. The Gods of Light are supposed to be the ones who work together after all, this co-operation of the Dark Gods is unusual.
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Re: Isvaria and Wind Rider's Oath
Post by Jay6722   » Sat Apr 02, 2011 4:45 pm

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WiseMan each possibility and probability have a universe where they happen. So while in the universe we are seeing Isvaria was unable to send Bahzell aid. There are also universes where she was able to send him help. So my question is why was Isvaria unable send Bahzell help in this universe.

WiseMan999 wrote:You have a point, Jay, but the question is when that point is. There are only 20 Champions of Tomanak in all of Norfressa, and from what I can gather he seems to be one of the more active gods. Presumably then Champions are thin on the ground, and Isvaria may not have had a Champion close enough to get there before events spiralled out of control at the point she could see the probabilities clearly enough to justify moving.

It is also possible that she allowed Tomanak to take the lead this time, as he had 2 Champions handy. The Gods of Light are supposed to be the ones who work together after all, this co-operation of the Dark Gods is unusual.
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Re: Isvaria and Wind Rider's Oath
Post by thinkstoomuch   » Sat Apr 02, 2011 9:12 pm

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Jay6722 wrote:WiseMan each possibility and probability have a universe where they happen. So while in the universe we are seeing Isvaria was unable to send Bahzell aid. There are also universes where she was able to send him help. So my question is why was Isvaria unable send Bahzell help in this universe.



Which always brings up in my mind a question. How do you ever get ahead in the sum total, for the gods anyway?

I mean for every instance of the good guys getting ahead there will be other instances where the bad guys do. I like the explanation in Apocalypse Troll much better than the fantasy gods scenario.

But not really on topic my apologies,
T2M
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Re: Isvaria and Wind Rider's Oath
Post by Jay6722   » Sun Apr 03, 2011 12:53 am

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We won't hurt you thinkstoomuch, I promise.

thinkstoomuch wrote:
Jay6722 wrote:WiseMan each possibility and probability have a universe where they happen. So while in the universe we are seeing Isvaria was unable to send Bahzell aid. There are also universes where she was able to send him help. So my question is why was Isvaria unable send Bahzell help in this universe.



Which always brings up in my mind a question. How do you ever get ahead in the sum total, for the gods anyway?

I mean for every instance of the good guys getting ahead there will be other instances where the bad guys do. I like the explanation in Apocalypse Troll much better than the fantasy gods scenario.

But not really on topic my apologies,
T2M
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Re: Isvaria and Wind Rider's Oath
Post by WiseMan999   » Sun Apr 03, 2011 8:57 am

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Actually, T2M, you raise an interesting point. If the multiverse is as Tomanak described it, with possibilites determining how many "cities" or universes turn good or bad, then the Gods seem rather powerless don't they? No matter what they do a certain amount of universes will turn good, and a certain amount of universes will turn bad.

You cannot even say it depends on the Gods at all really -for every universe they persuade to turn good, there will be a universe where they failed to do so. As I cannot imagine DW having the final ending as a draw, I have a feeling that I may have slightly misunderstood his reasoning and point.

Anyway, I digress.

As to you Jay, I apologise for my former point. I fear I misunderstood your original question and it totally passed me by that the multiverse means that there must be a universe where Isvaria did manage to send help. At the moment I feel somewhat confused to how this predicting of probabilites works. Does it work as I outlined above, where there are multiversal probabilites that affect every universe? Or, as has just occured to me, does each unverse have its own set of probabilites? After all, the outcome of each decision will affect each universe in any number of ways, making each one unique. Therefore each universe should have different sets of probabilites as each past decision has altered how things will be.

I digress, again.

I can think of several reasons why Isvaria did not send help.

1) DW forgot about her and her particular hatred for Krahana. As I pointed out, he pretty much ignores every other God apart from when they're needed. The only other God of Light's champion I can remember him mentioning is Lillinara's Voice, and I'm not even sure if they are champions. Not particularly helpful I admit, as it doesn't actually answer the question.

2) As Rook pointed out, Krahana may have been keeping her nearest champions busy.

3) Isvaria had no champions near enough to get there in time. I know you can argue that she should have been able to maneuver her champions nearer before everything flew apart. I can only answer this by saying that maybe the statistical improbability of the Dark Gods working together meant she was not expecting it. Not exactly a strong argument I admit.

4) Isvaria let Tomanak take the lead as he already had two champions near who were extremely well suited to thwarting the plan. With a little help of course.

Sorry for rambling, I - like T2M - think too much and almost invariably feel the need to "put pen to paper" as it were.
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Re: Isvaria and Wind Rider's Oath
Post by Jay6722   » Tue Apr 05, 2011 6:12 pm

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Wiseman that's the whole point of a multiverse reality for every outcome there is a equal and oppoiste outcome.
That is why T2M brings up a good point.

WiseMan999 wrote:Actually, T2M, you raise an interesting point. If the multiverse is as Tomanak described it, with possibilites determining how many "cities" or universes turn good or bad, then the Gods seem rather powerless don't they? No matter what they do a certain amount of universes will turn good, and a certain amount of universes will turn bad.

You cannot even say it depends on the Gods at all really -for every universe they persuade to turn good, there will be a universe where they failed to do so. As I cannot imagine DW having the final ending as a draw, I have a feeling that I may have slightly misunderstood his reasoning and point.

Anyway, I digress.

As to you Jay, I apologise for my former point. I fear I misunderstood your original question and it totally passed me by that the multiverse means that there must be a universe where Isvaria did manage to send help. At the moment I feel somewhat confused to how this predicting of probabilites works. Does it work as I outlined above, where there are multiversal probabilites that affect every universe? Or, as has just occured to me, does each unverse have its own set of probabilites? After all, the outcome of each decision will affect each universe in any number of ways, making each one unique. Therefore each universe should have different sets of probabilites as each past decision has altered how things will be.

I digress, again.

I can think of several reasons why Isvaria did not send help.

1) DW forgot about her and her particular hatred for Krahana. As I pointed out, he pretty much ignores every other God apart from when they're needed. The only other God of Light's champion I can remember him mentioning is Lillinara's Voice, and I'm not even sure if they are champions. Not particularly helpful I admit, as it doesn't actually answer the question.

2) As Rook pointed out, Krahana may have been keeping her nearest champions busy.

3) Isvaria had no champions near enough to get there in time. I know you can argue that she should have been able to maneuver her champions nearer before everything flew apart. I can only answer this by saying that maybe the statistical improbability of the Dark Gods working together meant she was not expecting it. Not exactly a strong argument I admit.

4) Isvaria let Tomanak take the lead as he already had two champions near who were extremely well suited to thwarting the plan. With a little help of course.

Sorry for rambling, I - like T2M - think too much and almost invariably feel the need to "put pen to paper" as it were.
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