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Inconsistencies in Old Kontovaran / Sothoii

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Inconsistencies in Old Kontovaran / Sothoii
Post by andrewtater   » Sat May 14, 2022 12:38 pm

andrewtater
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Posts: 13
Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2014 4:22 am

So, I totally get that languages change over time. But there are several references to Old Kontovaran, and are tied to a lot of the Sothoii language, that don’t align across books (or even within a single book). I’m basing this on the line about the Sothoii language being more closely related to the Kontovaran language than most in Norfressa.

Example: Walsharno’s name is most consistently translated to “Sun of Battle”, while Walasfro is “Son of Battle.” From here we can extract that the syllable “Wal-“ is battle, “-sharno” is sun, and “-asfro” or more commonly “-fro” is son. This is consistent with the names of the various god, like Tomanak Orfro being “Tomanak, Son of Orr”

Gayrfressa translates to “Wind Daughter” or “Daughter of the Wind” and Gayrhalan is “Storm Souled”, and Kengayr means “Born of the Wind”; along with the names of the gods (and Leeana now being Hanathafressa), we can infer that Gayr is roughly Wind or Storm, and -halan is something like “soul” or “souled”, and “Ken” is Born. So Kenhodan, meaning Born out of Silence, means the “-hodan” part is the “Silence”.

This dictionary is fortified by many other names: Konhandro (Mist Born), Sharnofressa (Daughter of the Sun), even Sothofranos on some level (Sons of the Fathers, the root word for Sothoii). It means both Ken and Kon mean “Born”, although the reason for the variation isn’t known.

This works fine until you get to Gayrfressa’s colt, Gayrhodan. The book claims his name means “Born of the Wind”, but based on the previously established rules, that would be “Gayrfro” or “Gayrasfro”. Gayrhoden should translate something close to “Silent Storm” or “Wind of Silence”.

There are a few other names that use entirely unique prefixes and suffixes, so they can’t be reliably differentiated. Dathgar (Thunder Grass) is probably broken down as Dath = grass while gar=thunder, just based on the Gayr being both Wind and Storm, but that is shooting from the hip. Vahrchanak (Snow Thunder) throws a wrench in this, which further fortifies the lack of consistency. Adding Byrchalka (“Black Thunderbolt”), along with the goddess of weather, Chemalka, probably makes -chalka into thunderbolt and -chanak meaning thunder, but again, I'm conjugating by guess and thunder is inconsistent.

Just curious if you think this is an error, or if the conjugation / evolution of language is a bigger influence.

For reference, below is my best estimate for an actual dictionary:

Word ------------ Meaning --------------- Origin
Gayr ------------ Wind / Storm ---------- Sothoii
Ken / Kon ------- Born ------------------ Kontovaran / Sothoii
Halan ----------- Souled ---------------- Sothoii
Fressa ---------- Daughter -------------- Sothoii
Fro ------------- Son ------------------- Sothoii
Wal ------------- Battle ---------------- Sothoii
Hodan ----------- Silence --------------- Kontovaran
Handro ---------- Mist / Gray Winds ----- Kontovaran / Sothoii
Glam ------------ Autumn ---------------- Kontovaran
Sharno ---------- Sun ------------------- Sothoii
Hra ------------- Calm ------------------ Kontovaran
Danahai --------- Foxlike --------------- Kontovaran
Chalka / Chanak - Thunder / Thunderbolt - Sothoii

(sorry, I can't figure out how to format a table)
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Re: Inconsistencies in Old Kontovaran / Sothoii
Post by Louis R   » Wed May 18, 2022 12:27 am

Louis R
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Posts: 1246
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2015 9:25 pm

Hmmmm...

Very bold you are, drawing conclusions from a sample this size. Particularly a sample consisting mostly of given names. Which can freeze in very archaic forms, or meanings that have changed considerably when the next name using that element is formed. And vowel sounds, in particular, can be very different two valleys over, never mind one end of the Wind Plain to the other.

A nice example of this is [chosen completely arbitrarily] Abigail: 'Derived from the Hebrew word ab, "father", and the Hebrew root g-y-l, "to rejoice," the name Abigail has a variety of possible meanings including "my father's joy" and "source of joy"' Note the rather loose connection between the 2 suggested readings of 'abi' - note also the vast gulf separating the Hebrew from the meaning of the word in English: "A lady's maid; a female servant or attendant."

I'd say that evaluating consistency on the basis of the available data is probably futile.


andrewtater wrote:So, I totally get that languages change over time. But there are several references to Old Kontovaran, and are tied to a lot of the Sothoii language, that don’t align across books (or even within a single book). I’m basing this on the line about the Sothoii language being more closely related to the Kontovaran language than most in Norfressa.

Example: Walsharno’s name is most consistently translated to “Sun of Battle”, while Walasfro is “Son of Battle.” From here we can extract that the syllable “Wal-“ is battle, “-sharno” is sun, and “-asfro” or more commonly “-fro” is son. This is consistent with the names of the various god, like Tomanak Orfro being “Tomanak, Son of Orr”

Gayrfressa translates to “Wind Daughter” or “Daughter of the Wind” and Gayrhalan is “Storm Souled”, and Kengayr means “Born of the Wind”; along with the names of the gods (and Leeana now being Hanathafressa), we can infer that Gayr is roughly Wind or Storm, and -halan is something like “soul” or “souled”, and “Ken” is Born. So Kenhodan, meaning Born out of Silence, means the “-hodan” part is the “Silence”.

This dictionary is fortified by many other names: Konhandro (Mist Born), Sharnofressa (Daughter of the Sun), even Sothofranos on some level (Sons of the Fathers, the root word for Sothoii). It means both Ken and Kon mean “Born”, although the reason for the variation isn’t known.

This works fine until you get to Gayrfressa’s colt, Gayrhodan. The book claims his name means “Born of the Wind”, but based on the previously established rules, that would be “Gayrfro” or “Gayrasfro”. Gayrhoden should translate something close to “Silent Storm” or “Wind of Silence”.

There are a few other names that use entirely unique prefixes and suffixes, so they can’t be reliably differentiated. Dathgar (Thunder Grass) is probably broken down as Dath = grass while gar=thunder, just based on the Gayr being both Wind and Storm, but that is shooting from the hip. Vahrchanak (Snow Thunder) throws a wrench in this, which further fortifies the lack of consistency. Adding Byrchalka (“Black Thunderbolt”), along with the goddess of weather, Chemalka, probably makes -chalka into thunderbolt and -chanak meaning thunder, but again, I'm conjugating by guess and thunder is inconsistent.

Just curious if you think this is an error, or if the conjugation / evolution of language is a bigger influence.

For reference, below is my best estimate for an actual dictionary:

Word ------------ Meaning --------------- Origin
Gayr ------------ Wind / Storm ---------- Sothoii
Ken / Kon ------- Born ------------------ Kontovaran / Sothoii
Halan ----------- Souled ---------------- Sothoii
Fressa ---------- Daughter -------------- Sothoii
Fro ------------- Son ------------------- Sothoii
Wal ------------- Battle ---------------- Sothoii
Hodan ----------- Silence --------------- Kontovaran
Handro ---------- Mist / Gray Winds ----- Kontovaran / Sothoii
Glam ------------ Autumn ---------------- Kontovaran
Sharno ---------- Sun ------------------- Sothoii
Hra ------------- Calm ------------------ Kontovaran
Danahai --------- Foxlike --------------- Kontovaran
Chalka / Chanak - Thunder / Thunderbolt - Sothoii

(sorry, I can't figure out how to format a table)
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