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Siddarmark Situation

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Re: Siddarmark Situation
Post by PeterZ   » Fri Nov 22, 2019 1:09 pm

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Michae wrote:Would it be possible to "commerce raid" Charis as this point? I was under the impression that Charis had the only viable navy left and trying to challenge it would be bordering on suicidal,which is why certain Harchong advisors attempted to divert Zhyou-Zhwo on to a different track as declaring open war on Charis and their allies would have resulted in their swift and total defeat. Wouldn't commerce raiding them at sea have the same result?
DMcCunney wrote:snip

Dohlor is working on steam powered warships, but are still limited to hybrid designs using steam powered wooden framed vessels. The don't currently have the foundry capacity to do anything else. (Attaining that capacity is an intermediate term Dohloran objective, but you don't conjure high capacity steel foundries from thin air.)

Harchong and Desnair are even farther behind. Harchong has no navy. Desnair sort of does, but none of it is steam powered. I'd call it years before Desnair has the capacity to produce steam powered warships of the hybrid design, and a lot longer for iron framed and hulled models. It will be even longer for Harchong. Even when Desnair does, I don't see it having anything that would make the ICN even break a sweat.

snip
______
Dennis

Duke Delthak built a steam automotive factory in Gorath as part of the railroad in Dohlar back in 901-902. That argues for Dohlar having all the labor saving power tools of the then current generation technology. So, Dohlar has turbine powered compressors and all sorts of smaller steam engines for moving heavy equipment/pieces around a factory floor.

Sure they had an accident with a steam powered warship. I suspect that was a plot device used to misdirect the reader from the quality of the steam tech of the engines they used. Steam automotives are driven by double expansion engines. Those types of engines are fine for powering coastal defense vessels such as the Cities and Rivers. Dohlar doesn't need much more than that so long as they are on good terms with Charis. And that accident happened some time in 907-9? By the end of TFT, Dohlar has had another 7-8 years to improve their design.

Desnair has developed prior generation double expansion designs into reliable automotive for their railroads. By 910-912 they are trying to design steam powered warships. Give them the same type of learning curve as Dohlar, and Desnair should be experimenting with prototypes by the end of TFT. Both Dohlar and Desnair are building railroads so they have the ability to build armor plate in quantity.

Assuming the "risk fleet" strategy Harchong is considering, Desnair can design and build a coastal defense fleet for Harchong. They can build those ships for Harchong, but will they? Does Hachong want to provide Harchong with tools that can threaten them? If they do build those ships for Harchong, they will face a serious quandary. Will they adopt more of the mass production techniques necessary to the required quantity of warships? If they do, they disrupt their society. If they don't, they can't build enough ships for themselves AND for Harchong.

Volume will be necessary because Dohlar will be building warships too. The RDN will be competing in the same waters as Desnair and Harchong. Dohlar isn't building a risk fleet, but a true coastal defense navy that could dominate the Gulf of Dohlar over any other navy besides the ICN. Worse yet, the RDN will have better technology than anything Desnair can develop on their own. That increases the incentive to increase productive capacity of their heavy industry. Which increases the incentives to accept changes in their social matrix.

That also increases the incentive for Desnair and Harchong to find a way to launch Siddermark into an aggressive war against Dohlar. Encouraging Glacierheart and Thesmar to secede and seek Dohlar and Charisian aid is a good place to start. With Siddermark attacking Dohlar and Harchong and Desnair providing assistance, Charis will be stretched thin to help the UP, East Harchong and Silkiah.

Toss in the Visitation of Schueler which will paralyze the Temple Lands and Siddermark will have another bloody war within their borders.
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Re: Siddarmark Situation
Post by Dilandu   » Fri Nov 22, 2019 1:38 pm

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PeterZ wrote:Dohlar isn't building a risk fleet, but a true coastal defense navy that could dominate the Gulf of Dohlar over any other navy besides the ICN.


Actually, they would almost inevitably start to consider RCN as their potential opponent, too. Even if current relations between Dohlar and Charis are friendly, the situation (from the Dohlar point of view) might change in future. And for Dohlar, control of the Gulf is vital - much more vital, than it is for Charis. So, I suspect that operation doctrine of Dohlaran Navy would quite soon start include: "...and threw our gracious allies away from the Gulf, if they would start to misbehave".
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Oh well, if shortening the front is what the Germans crave,
Let's shorten it to very end - the length of Fuhrer's grave.

(Red Army lyrics from 1945)
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Re: Siddarmark Situation
Post by PeterZ   » Fri Nov 22, 2019 1:59 pm

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PeterZ wrote:Dohlar isn't building a risk fleet, but a true coastal defense navy that could dominate the Gulf of Dohlar over any other navy besides the ICN.
Dilandu wrote:
Actually, they would almost inevitably start to consider RCN as their potential opponent, too. Even if current relations between Dohlar and Charis are friendly, the situation (from the Dohlar point of view) might change in future. And for Dohlar, control of the Gulf is vital - much more vital, than it is for Charis. So, I suspect that operation doctrine of Dohlaran Navy would quite soon start include: "...and threw our gracious allies away from the Gulf, if they would start to misbehave".


Agreed. That was why turbine driven compressors in the Automotive manufactory is so important. I can see Dohlar developing turbines to manufacture an advantage over existing ICN warships. If the RDN can build faster warships of the same class as the ICN and don't need to build the same level of endurance to project power, the RDN can build shorter legged warships that are more heavily armed and armored to defend the Gulf of Dohlar.

Now, Dilandu, your beloved torpedo's can be deployed on fast destroyers against the ICN capital ships. Also, I can see an RDN warship designed like the Bismark. A heavy capital ship that's fast and short legged with heavy armor and big guns meant to close quickly to destroy the enemy.
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Re: Siddarmark Situation
Post by Dilandu   » Fri Nov 22, 2019 2:15 pm

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PeterZ wrote:
Now, Dilandu, your beloved torpedo's can be deployed on fast destroyers against the ICN capital ships. Also, I can see an RDN warship designed like the Bismark. A heavy capital ship that's fast and short legged with heavy armor and big guns meant to close quickly to destroy the enemy.


I'm not sure that Bismark is a good example here. Italian Littorio-class would probably serve better; they were quite limited in range, but fast, very heavily armored & designed for maximum punching power.

Considering the design of Dohlar capital ships... hard to say exactly, there are numerous possibilities. I suspect that their closest battleships would probably be relatively compact: like late-generation French coast defense battleships.

Image

Bouvines-class. Low-freeboard, but high forecastle, which gave her good (limited) seakeeping ability. 6700 tons, 17 knots, two 12-inch long guns in single turrets, eight 4-inch QF guns. 10-18-inch nickel-steel belt.
------------------------------

Oh well, if shortening the front is what the Germans crave,
Let's shorten it to very end - the length of Fuhrer's grave.

(Red Army lyrics from 1945)
Top
Re: Siddarmark Situation
Post by PeterZ   » Fri Nov 22, 2019 2:42 pm

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PeterZ wrote:
Now, Dilandu, your beloved torpedo's can be deployed on fast destroyers against the ICN capital ships. Also, I can see an RDN warship designed like the Bismark. A heavy capital ship that's fast and short legged with heavy armor and big guns meant to close quickly to destroy the enemy.
Dilandu wrote:
I'm not sure that Bismark is a good example here. Italian Littorio-class would probably serve better; they were quite limited in range, but fast, very heavily armored & designed for maximum punching power.

Considering the design of Dohlar capital ships... hard to say exactly, there are numerous possibilities. I suspect that their closest battleships would probably be relatively compact: like late-generation French coast defense battleships.

Image

Bouvines-class. Low-freeboard, but high forecastle, which gave her good (limited) seakeeping ability. 6700 tons, 17 knots, two 12-inch long guns in single turrets, eight 4-inch QF guns. 10-18-inch nickel-steel belt.

Yeah, but substitute the triple expansion engines for turbines. That increased the speed by quite a bit. Getting the gearing right will be tough, but worth it in the end.

Turbina is more of a PT Boat platform capable of 34.5 knots or 39.7 mph. This is a good place to start experimenting with turbines. The end game is something like the USS Iowa capable of 33 knots or 38 mph.

So a turbine powered Bouvines design would be a nice heavy cruiser/battle cruiser for the RDN. A Dreadnought design would be a good initial BB design to build towards. Either design would crush anything the Desnairian or Harchongians could build for a generation. The only hope is to distract Dohalran production away from a naval buildup.
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Re: Siddarmark Situation
Post by Dilandu   » Fri Nov 22, 2019 2:56 pm

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PeterZ wrote:Yeah, but substitute the triple expansion engines for turbines. That increased the speed by quite a bit. Getting the gearing right will be tough, but worth it in the end.


Well, early turbines have their issues... But it is not important, yes.

PeterZ wrote:Turbina is more of a PT Boat platform capable of 34.5 knots or 39.7 mph. This is a good place to start experimenting with turbines. The end game is something like the USS Iowa capable of 33 knots or 38 mph.


Considering that without electricity the level of automation required to operate 1940s powerplant is unattainable, I think it would be good enough if Dohlaran battleships would be able of 23+ knots)

PeterZ wrote:Either design would crush anything the Desnairian or Harchongians could build for a generation. The only hope is to distract Dohalran production away from a naval buildup.


...Do not be so sure. Low-level technology may also have some tricks. Did you heard about Ordonez guns? They were an interesting type of rifled artillery, made in late-XIX century Spain. Spain was not exactly a rich country at this time, and all-steel heavy guns were costly. So, Ordonez guns were composite: they have steel tube, cast-iron body, and wrought-iron hoops around. Ordonez designed guns of his type up to 12-inch ones.

Of course, they were heavier than contemporary all-steel guns, and threw lighter shells with less power. Still, the destruction power of 12-inch breech-loading rifle should not be underestimated.
------------------------------

Oh well, if shortening the front is what the Germans crave,
Let's shorten it to very end - the length of Fuhrer's grave.

(Red Army lyrics from 1945)
Top
Re: Siddarmark Situation
Post by PeterZ   » Fri Nov 22, 2019 3:16 pm

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PeterZ wrote:Turbina is more of a PT Boat platform capable of 34.5 knots or 39.7 mph. This is a good place to start experimenting with turbines. The end game is something like the USS Iowa capable of 33 knots or 38 mph.
Dilandu wrote:
Considering that without electricity the level of automation required to operate 1940s powerplant is unattainable, I think it would be good enough if Dohlaran battleships would be able of 23+ knots)


HMS Turbina was built in 1894. That level of technology is possible on Safehold in 915. USS Iowa is not. However, a Bouvines design powered by 1 or 2 turbines is possible. 23 knots? Sure, but I think it more likely that a sustained 25-28 knots is a more likely target for RDN capital ships by 925. The ICN can achieve 23 knots AND keep their endurance. To compete with that the RDN has to squeeze more speed out of a given sized ship.

Now at PT boat powered by turbines is something very interesting to contemplate for the RDN. Their experience with screw galleys prepares them nicely for contemplating that possibility.
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Re: Siddarmark Situation
Post by Dilandu   » Fri Nov 22, 2019 3:25 pm

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PeterZ wrote: is not. However, a Bouvines design powered by 1 or 2 turbines is possible. 23 knots? Sure, but I think it more likely that a sustained 25-28 knots is a more likely target for RDN capital ships by 925.


Nah. High speed is costly, and required A - fine hydrodynamic, B - a lot of power. Without at least late 1920s tech level (which is unattainable on Safehold), the only way to build fast capital ship is either build very big capital ships, or unbalanced capital ships.

The World War I battlecruisers are the fine example. They were either unbalanced - forced to sacrifice protection or armament for speed - or very big. More or less balanced battlecruisers - HMS "Hood", SMS "Mackensen", russian "Izmail" - were really big, more than 35000 tons displacement.

The Dohlarans may build a specific type of heavy-armed fast cruisers, for high-speed role, but they hardly would try to reach 28 knots on their main units.

The ICN can achieve 23 knots AND keep their endurance. To compete with that the RDN has to squeeze more speed out of a given sized ship.

Now at PT boat powered by turbines is something very interesting to contemplate for the RDN. Their experience with screw galleys prepares them nicely for contemplating that possibility.

PeterZ wrote:Now at PT boat powered by turbines is something very interesting to contemplate for the RDN. Their experience with screw galleys prepares them nicely for contemplating that possibility.


Currently even a machine-powered torpedo boat would be a naval revolution of its own)
------------------------------

Oh well, if shortening the front is what the Germans crave,
Let's shorten it to very end - the length of Fuhrer's grave.

(Red Army lyrics from 1945)
Top
Re: Siddarmark Situation
Post by PeterZ   » Fri Nov 22, 2019 3:32 pm

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PeterZ wrote:Now at PT boat powered by turbines is something very interesting to contemplate for the RDN. Their experience with screw galleys prepares them nicely for contemplating that possibility.
Dilandu wrote:
Currently even a machine-powered torpedo boat would be a naval revolution of its own)

Yeah, but without a sufficient speed differential, the PT boat would be ineffective. As David stated in his posts, reciprocating steam engines can't sustain such speed without vibrating to pieces. Turbines don't have that problem.

I think turbines or IC diesels are necessary to attain the necessary speed differential needed for effective torpedo boats.
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Re: Siddarmark Situation
Post by Dilandu   » Fri Nov 22, 2019 3:51 pm

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PeterZ wrote:Yeah, but without a sufficient speed differential, the PT boat would be ineffective. As David stated in his posts, reciprocating steam engines can't sustain such speed without vibrating to pieces. Turbines don't have that problem.


Well, the 1896s Royal Navy destroyers were able to do 30 knots. The best contemporary French torpedo boats were able to do about 31 knots, but the average was about 25-26 knots (French TB's weren't actually very fast, their main advantages were the size & numbers). But it must be pointed out, that those impressive results were under optimal conditions. In fact, by 1904 Royal Navy dropped the speed of destroyers to 25-26 knots, because it was the one deemed sustainable.
------------------------------

Oh well, if shortening the front is what the Germans crave,
Let's shorten it to very end - the length of Fuhrer's grave.

(Red Army lyrics from 1945)
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