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Siddarmark Situation

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Re: Siddarmark Situation
Post by jontom   » Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:50 am

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A better parallel might be Italy, which was a victor in WW1 but felt shortchanged by the postwar settlement.
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Re: Siddarmark Situation
Post by PeterZ   » Mon Jun 24, 2019 10:48 pm

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Imaginos1892 wrote:[snip]

Is RFC setting up for Siddarmark to turn into a combination of Imperial Germany and Nazi Germany? There have already been some disturbing parallels.
———————————
It takes two to make peace. It only takes one to make war.
SilverbladeTE wrote:Exactly....

RFC is sort of borrowing from and commenting on history, and, people are people...such things happen because of Human behaviour trends so they kind of repeat themselves as we see in the "real world" today, alas
Peter2 wrote:There is one crucial difference. Siddermark doesn't have the "undefeated army" and "unjust peace treaty" that Adolf Hitler based some of his propaganda on. Of course, they might try manufacturing one . . ..

Of course they are manufacturing a narrative of their own victimization. Charis helped Harchong, Siddermark's enemy in the Jihad rather than help them. They foisted those horrid capitalist practices upon those legacy manufactories run by misguided Sidermarkians. The Charisian Crown Princess is kanoodling with a Dolahran aristocrat, another enemy of Siddermark which caused the nation the most damage.

Pray tell, what hasn't Charis done to insult and brutalize Siddermark? Those arrogant bassids are the cause of all Siddermark's suffering.
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Re: Siddarmark Situation
Post by feyhunde   » Thu Jul 04, 2019 11:33 am

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SilverbladeTE wrote:The Church will fall apart in bloodshed and chaos because that Schueler event guarantees absolute schism with no middle ground.
It will make the Reformation look like an argument over a parking space!
Imagine testimony from St Andrew saying St Peter was an evil scumbag who betrayed Jesus so he could run things himself, setup Judas and murderously hanged him, and could prove that...yeah that'd go down well! :shock:
At a time when Church's ability as moderator and humanitarian facilitator of morals and necessities for civilian life, will never have been greater needed.


I mean the Gospel of Judas exists, and it says more or less the same thing.

Otoh it didn't have a 'visitation' seen by hundreds of people to support it.
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Re: Siddarmark Situation
Post by SilverbladeTE   » Thu Jul 04, 2019 6:33 pm

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feyhunde wrote:
I mean the Gospel of Judas exists, and it says more or less the same thing.

Otoh it didn't have a 'visitation' seen by hundreds of people to support it.



Well, to paraphrase Merlin, I didn't want to get tacky ;)
Paul and many others horribly twisted things to form a religion they could hammer into other folk.
Trying to get a clear picture of what a working class, married, Jewish anti-authoritarian rabbi actually said and any facts...got buried under politics etc, same with the Torah though few will ever admit it
But the historical evidence to support claims of out right lies and aduleration exist.

Personally, I think Jesus was moved by the spirit of God but he wasn't "god" or any other such, folk tacked that on as they want a "Big Daddy in the sky" who's bigger than everyone else's Daddy...so they can feel safe! :roll:
Good and evil, spirituality, are a LOT more than that infantile kind of B.S., sigh and most folk ain't up to really thinking about it.

"By the fruit of their tree ye shall know them"
"Do unto.others as you would be done by yourself"
"Better to tie a millstone around your neck and jump in the millpond than harm an innocent"
"Love one another"
Etc
amazing wisdom, parables with many subtle insights and meanings, compassion.

Hence I consider myself "Christian" but I can't abide organized religion, especially because of the obscene sectarianism in my part of the world, even as a kid I could feel the hate and evil of it and rejected BOTH sides' garbage...which as we now know was funded by the nobles and industrialists in late 1800s onwards so workers would fight each other over idiot labels, rather than band together for better conditions.

Ironically all that helped wreck the rich wahoos too in the end, because without honest friendly inclusion and respect on both sides of the workplace, things go badly.
Thus their lousy management drove things into the ground but also caused catastrophic, deadly pollution here

Christ the Peacemaker...and people really did shout in the Wars of Religion:
"Holy Jesus and no quarter!"
Ick :(
There's no greater miracle than young life
No greater battle than building peaceful societies for children to grow in safety
And no chapel, kirk, mosque, synagogue, temple or whatever approaches the beauty and majesty of the world around us.
And gold...asteroids are full of the stuff and you can't eat it
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Re: Siddarmark Situation
Post by Michae   » Fri Jul 05, 2019 2:31 am

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Just a note but you might want to be careful with making statements such as "we know" as not everyone here shares your opinion. Also
with the Christ the Peacemaker...and people really did shout in the Wars of Religion:"Holy Jesus and no quarter!"

if you had a group of idiots shouting statements that they profess that attribute you you,would you not wish that they had the good sense to shut up or at the very minimum keep such statements to themselves?
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Re: Siddarmark Situation
Post by DMcCunney   » Mon Sep 30, 2019 4:54 pm

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Michae wrote:Would it be possible to "commerce raid" Charis as this point? I was under the impression that Charis had the only viable navy left and trying to challenge it would be bordering on suicidal,which is why certain Harchong advisors attempted to divert Zhyou-Zhwo on to a different track as declaring open war on Charis and their allies would have resulted in their swift and total defeat. Wouldn't commerce raiding them at sea have the same result?

It might be possible down the road, but hardly imminent.

We've already seen in TFT that Charis has increasingly shifted to iron hulled, steam powered merchant ships. A comment about the Liberty ships introduced in the Jihad was that they were unarmed, but no existing warships could catch them. It's not stated anywhere, but it's clear that galleon based merchant ships are going away. Steam powered merchantmen are a lot faster, can carry a lot more cargo, and are not dependent on favorable winds to go where they are going in the desired time frame.

The only ships that could do commerce raiding on iron hulled steam powered Charisian merchant ships would be purpose built steam powered warships. No one else currently has them. Charis will happily sell steam powered merchant ships to other realms, but will not sell warships. This is no surprise to any other realm - if they could build them, they wouldn't sell them to potential enemies either. They have no idea Charis's real motivation is to force them to develop the capability to build their own to spread the growth of industrialization

Dohlor is working on steam powered warships, but are still limited to hybrid designs using steam powered wooden framed vessels. The don't currently have the foundry capacity to do anything else. (Attaining that capacity is an intermediate term Dohloran objective, but you don't conjure high capacity steel foundries from thin air.)

Harchong and Desnair are even farther behind. Harchong has no navy. Desnair sort of does, but none of it is steam powered. I'd call it years before Desnair has the capacity to produce steam powered warships of the hybrid design, and a lot longer for iron framed and hulled models. It will be even longer for Harchong. Even when Desnair does, I don't see it having anything that would make the ICN even break a sweat.

Commerce raiding Charisian merchant shipping would produce a repeat of what happened to Desnair last time - the commerce raiders destroyed, and the yards that built them and the bases they sortie from flattened from end to end. I think Marhys in Desnair is smart enough to realize that. Zhyou Zhwo in Harchang apparently isn't, though his ministers are. Marhys is playing a longer term game to cement Harchong as an ally based on mutual revulsion at changes in their social order. Where he expects to go down the road is an interesting question, but I don't think war with Charis is a desired destination.
______
Dennis
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Re: Siddarmark Situation
Post by PlaysWithBees   » Wed Oct 02, 2019 12:15 pm

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DMcCunney wrote:
(SNIP)

Where he expects to go down the road is an interesting question, but I don't think war with Charis is a desired destination.
______
Dennis

.
...Yet!

In the future when they are self deluded enough to believe they can do it, both will jump on the chance with out a 2nd thought
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Re: Siddarmark Situation
Post by SilverbladeTE   » Wed Oct 02, 2019 1:35 pm

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PlaysWithBees wrote:
DMcCunney wrote:
(SNIP)

Where he expects to go down the road is an interesting question, but I don't think war with Charis is a desired destination.
______
Dennis

.
...Yet!

In the future when they are self deluded enough to believe they can do it, both will jump on the chance with out a 2nd thought


And as said more or.less in one of the novels:
"If I was given a mark.for every stupid thing nobles or priests have done, I'd be the richest man on Safehold!"

Never overlook what stupid people do,.like the Kaiser wanting to fight Britain. That didn't end well for anyone, except some arms sellers.

The Desnairian and Harchong Emperors utter hate for Charis is enormous and the Siddarmark junta are freakin' lunatics grasping a tiger by the tail while jamming a torch up its arse!
The probability of such wahoos pushing things to war approaches 1

Human Nature at.work and RFC will write a tale of industrial espionage advancement or whatever to make such a conflict plausible and NOT a walk over for Charis.

TFT set the stage for an extremely vicious conflict to come
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Re: Siddarmark Situation
Post by DMcCunney   » Thu Oct 03, 2019 11:04 am

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PlaysWithBees wrote:
DMcCunney wrote:
(SNIP)

Where he expects to go down the road is an interesting question, but I don't think war with Charis is a desired destination.

...Yet!

In the future when they are self deluded enough to believe they can do it, both will jump on the chance with out a 2nd thought
And it will not end well for them, because Charis will be aware of what they are up to every step of the way.

Charis wants other realms to attain the ability to build steam powered warships of their own, to spread industrialzation. Letting them use them against Charis or its allies is another matter.

Zhyou-zhwo in Harchong is crazy enough to want to commence active operations against Harchong now. At least some of his ministers realize that's suicidal and are trying to divert him. Mahrys in Desnair isn't that stupid. He knows Desnair cannot fight Charis and win. His aspirations are longer term. My impression was that after the end of the Jihad, Desnair got a massive blow to its collective ego, when it wasn't even invited to the peace talks. That stung. To be seen as irrelevant by everyone else is a rather crushing slap.

Mahrys despises Charis, in large part because the Charisian example is a massive threat to Desnair's social order. Zhyou-zhwo feels the same, with religious and historical attitudes thrown in. North Harchong's setup wss the one ordained by God and the Archangels, Harchong was the greatest Empire on the face of Safehold, and the changes since the Jihad are heresy.

Mahrys sees a kindred spirit in Harchong, and a natural ally. But while he certainly wouldn't mind being able to fight Charis in open combat, he's at least smart enough to know how that would end.

What I think he wants to do in the short term is have an alliance with Harchong that will be something the rest of Safehold will take seriously, and can't just point and laugh at.

Once he has that he can think longer term.
______
Dennis
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Re: Siddarmark Situation
Post by SilverbladeTE   » Thu Oct 03, 2019 12:46 pm

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DMcCunney,
I think Mahrys hate is equal to Waisu's if not worse.
His capitol got blasted, his relatives dead of their own stupidity, his regime shown up as crap, longer involved than Waisu, and definitely a few.moments.of sheer vicious cold blooded hate shown in TFT.

Yes, he's smart enough to be cautious.
People though do dumb things, always remember THEY don't.know about SNARCs etc and.folk.can and do go.down insane roads.
WW1 is one of my fave examples of why it is NOT reasonable to assume potential enemies will behave rationally...like, with nukes....

and since the story is over an increasing time and the author will wish us to have a fun ride where.it.is not.a cakewalk for Charis, I'd bet something is going to really upset the soup bowl!
What that maybe I don't.know.
I'am piqued, for example by Tarot.in TFT...sure it could be exactly as said, but what.if someone has Gorjah over a barrel, holding hostages etc?

Note that for moral and practical reasons the IC had to cut back on their SNARC and parasite drones, so.coverage maybe spotty
And, who's to say Chihiro's version of Merlin , most.likely an AI of very limited power but maybe with Hamilcar's production module, has not been triggered by all these shennanigans?

I expect surprises ahead ;)
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