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Dilandu's little hysteria,

This fascinating series is a combination of historical seafaring, swashbuckling adventure, and high technological science-fiction. Join us in a discussion!
Re: Dilandu's little hysteria,
Post by Dilandu   » Fri Feb 08, 2019 2:04 pm

Dilandu
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PeterZ wrote:All of this legacy technology doesn't need to be reinvented. Reintroducing legacy tech as is being described in the stories is the means of reintroducing the scientific method and the process of innovation. The idea isn't to reinvent all that tech, but to quickly get everyone to Terran Federation level tech with a refined innovative mindset.


Question: as soon as tech level would be equalized, what would other Safeholdian nations do to Charis, as soon as they realized that all its advantages that put Charis in dominant position weren't Charisian in any way and actually have nothing to do with "innovative mindset"?

:D
------------------------------

- Who would won in battle between strawman Liberal-Democrat and strawman Conservative-Republican?
- Scarecrow from Oz; he was strawman before it became political.

P.S. - And he have Russian twin, to watch his back)
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Re: Dilandu's little hysteria,
Post by captinjoehenry   » Fri Feb 08, 2019 2:16 pm

captinjoehenry
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Dilandu wrote:Question: as soon as tech level would be equalized, what would other Safeholdian nations do to Charis, as soon as they realized that all its advantages that put Charis in dominant position weren't Charisian in any way and actually have nothing to do with "innovative mindset"?

:D

Except the thing is effectively ALL of Charis's advantages come from it's innovative mindset. The IC might provide hints and tips but the entire point of their existence is to facilitate and encourage innovation. At this point even if the entire IC shut down Charis would still innovate better and better technology in all areas because that is the entire mindset that's been established. Effectively all the innovations beyond the ones from Merlins initial meeting have been entirely homegrown in Charis with only minor tweaking and improvements from the IC.
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Re: Dilandu's little hysteria,
Post by Dilandu   » Fri Feb 08, 2019 2:23 pm

Dilandu
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captinjoehenry wrote:Merlin is not able to support any other countries innovators. He has no practical way to provide them with support. Not to mention Dohlar completely designed and built their own steam warship from the ground up and have undoubtedly continued to improve on them entirely on their own. You even see Desnair and Harchong being forced to innovate in order to keep up with the rest of the world after they cut off contact with Charis. There's loads of it off camera with the best on camera example being Desnairs homegrown bolt action magazine fed rifle.


Correction: he didn't want to help them. He could easily repeat his "seijin" trick, for example, or create some sort of "seer" persona, or other tricks to gain influence on other countries.

He just didn't want to, because of goalpost moving: instead of encouraging the whole planet toward innovative mindset, he just used the whole planet as a giant human shield for Charis.
------------------------------

- Who would won in battle between strawman Liberal-Democrat and strawman Conservative-Republican?
- Scarecrow from Oz; he was strawman before it became political.

P.S. - And he have Russian twin, to watch his back)
Top
Re: Dilandu's little hysteria,
Post by Dilandu   » Fri Feb 08, 2019 2:29 pm

Dilandu
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Posts: 1757
Joined: Sat May 07, 2011 12:44 pm
Location: Russia

captinjoehenry wrote:Except the thing is effectively ALL of Charis's advantages come from it's innovative mindset.


...Which was created under centuries-old influence of the Brotherhood, to start with. It wasn't "natural process", it was influenced. Again, cheating. Now, let's took the situation into nationalism era - when "new additions" to Charis would start to recall that they were independent nations before Charisian conquest, and realize, that Charisian were able to conquer them only by cheating...

P.S. I take it, that everyone agree with the point 2 - dissatisfying quality of TFT villains?
------------------------------

- Who would won in battle between strawman Liberal-Democrat and strawman Conservative-Republican?
- Scarecrow from Oz; he was strawman before it became political.

P.S. - And he have Russian twin, to watch his back)
Top
Re: Dilandu's little hysteria,
Post by captinjoehenry   » Fri Feb 08, 2019 2:42 pm

captinjoehenry
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Posts: 147
Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2015 8:36 pm

...Which was created under centuries-old influence of the Brotherhood, to start with. It wasn't "natural process", it was influenced. Again, cheating. Now, let's took the situation into nationalism era - when "new additions" to Charis would start to recall that they were independent nations before Charisian conquest, and realize, that Charisian were able to conquer them only by cheating...

By the point that becomes common knowledge or is even known outside the IC the IC would have won straight up, the church would be dead and the lie revealed to the world. At that point it doesn't really matter at all and those nations would still be loyal to Charis because of the political situation and how they like being a part of the charisian empire and all that that entails.

Correction: he didn't want to help them. He could easily repeat his "seijin" trick, for example, or create some sort of "seer" persona, or other tricks to gain influence on other countries.

He just didn't want to, because of goalpost moving: instead of encouraging the whole planet toward innovative mindset, he just used the whole planet as a giant human shield for Charis.

I mean again you don't seem to understand that Merlin is a human who is at this point loyal to Charis and would not work against the interest of Charis if at all possible. Plus I mean so far the expansion of Charisian technology and the spread of it's inventions have entirely accomplished the goal of making the rest of the world embrace an innovative mindset to as great an extent as the society they live in allows. As in Sidermark, Dohlar, The Temple Lands, United Provinces, Earl Rainbow Waters area and probably a fair few border states have entirely embraced innovation and making new technology which is probably over 70% of the world's population. Desnair and Harchong have also become innovative as well to keep up but to a lesser extent as they cannot become more innovative without their society collapsing and their internal regime is too strongly in place to be toppled but even they are innovating and their society is likely to fall apart fairly soon at which point 100% of Safeholds population would have fully embraced innovation. At the end of TFT 75% of the worlds population is full steam ahead innovating and the remainder is innovating as well but to a lesser extent. Effectively Merlin and the IC have entirely achieved their goal of creating an innovative mindset across the entire planet.
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Re: Dilandu's little hysteria,
Post by PeterZ   » Fri Feb 08, 2019 2:51 pm

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captinjoehenry wrote:Except the thing is effectively ALL of Charis's advantages come from it's innovative mindset.
Dilandu wrote:
...Which was created under centuries-old influence of the Brotherhood, to start with. It wasn't "natural process", it was influenced. Again, cheating. Now, let's took the situation into nationalism era - when "new additions" to Charis would start to recall that they were independent nations before Charisian conquest, and realize, that Charisian were able to conquer them only by cheating...

P.S. I take it, that everyone agree with the point 2 - dissatisfying quality of TFT villains?

Charis wouldn't have had to cheat if the CoGA hadn't persuaded all those other nations to avoid High Tech. Persuaded those nations based on a lie. Charis didn't cheat as much as they did not accept the lie. Their success was based on accepting the truth.

Once the tech levels have been equalized and social structures are more aligned with universal representation, those nations can help shape Safehold's future. How quickly people move past Terran Tech is based on just how innovative people become.
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Re: Dilandu's little hysteria,
Post by Dilandu   » Fri Feb 08, 2019 2:53 pm

Dilandu
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captinjoehenry wrote:I mean again you don't seem to understand that Merlin is a human who is at this point loyal to Charis and would not work against the interest of Charis if at all possible.


Er, so now the Uri Geller defense? "He is only human, he just could not resist the urge to cheat"?

Not to mention that we have also Nimue and Owl, who should make a point about the problem of being too emotionally attached to particular set of pawns.
------------------------------

- Who would won in battle between strawman Liberal-Democrat and strawman Conservative-Republican?
- Scarecrow from Oz; he was strawman before it became political.

P.S. - And he have Russian twin, to watch his back)
Top
Re: Dilandu's little hysteria,
Post by captinjoehenry   » Fri Feb 08, 2019 2:57 pm

captinjoehenry
Lieutenant Commander

Posts: 147
Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2015 8:36 pm

Dilandu wrote:
captinjoehenry wrote:I mean again you don't seem to understand that Merlin is a human who is at this point loyal to Charis and would not work against the interest of Charis if at all possible.


Er, so now the Uri Geller defense? "He is only human, he just could not resist the urge to cheat"?

Not to mention that we have also Nimue and Owl, who should make a point about the problem of being too emotionally attached to particular set of pawns.

Ummm.... They aren't pawns. And Nimue and Owl are both equally invested in Charis. Plus they don't need to do anything else. They've entirely achieved their goals of making the rest of the world innovate. Even Desnair is 100% committed to designing and building their own inventions. There's straight up a quote of that on page 449 where Paitryk talks about Desnair designing their own stuff as soon as they can.
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Re: Dilandu's little hysteria,
Post by Dilandu   » Fri Feb 08, 2019 2:58 pm

Dilandu
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PeterZ wrote:Charis wouldn't have had to cheat if the CoGA hadn't persuaded all those other nations to avoid High Tech. Persuaded those nations based on a lie. Charis didn't cheat as much as they did not accept the lie. Their success was based on accepting the truth.


Nah. Accepting the truth without knowing anything about that didn't count. The majority of Charisians pre-Jihad would be utterly horrified about the truth, and would most likely reject it instantly. Being manipulated without your knowledge does NOT means to "adopt truth".

PeterZ wrote:Once the tech levels have been equalized and social structures are more aligned with universal representation, those nations can help shape Safehold's future. How quickly people move past Terran Tech is based on just how innovative people become.


Currently no nation on Safehold have any analogue of universal representation. It was specifically noted in OAR, that Charis is NOT a parliamentarian democracy of any kind. The social development on Safehold is still late-medieval by itself.
------------------------------

- Who would won in battle between strawman Liberal-Democrat and strawman Conservative-Republican?
- Scarecrow from Oz; he was strawman before it became political.

P.S. - And he have Russian twin, to watch his back)
Top
Re: Dilandu's little hysteria,
Post by PeterZ   » Fri Feb 08, 2019 4:24 pm

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Posts: 6157
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Spoiler
PeterZ wrote:Charis wouldn't have had to cheat if the CoGA hadn't persuaded all those other nations to avoid High Tech. Persuaded those nations based on a lie. Charis didn't cheat as much as they did not accept the lie. Their success was based on accepting the truth.
Dilandu wrote:
Nah. Accepting the truth without knowing anything about that didn't count. The majority of Charisians pre-Jihad would be utterly horrified about the truth, and would most likely reject it instantly. Being manipulated without your knowledge does NOT means to "adopt truth".

PeterZ wrote:Once the tech levels have been equalized and social structures are more aligned with universal representation, those nations can help shape Safehold's future. How quickly people move past Terran Tech is based on just how innovative people become.
Dilandu wrote:
Currently no nation on Safehold have any analogue of universal representation. It was specifically noted in OAR, that Charis is NOT a parliamentarian democracy of any kind. The social development on Safehold is still late-medieval by itself.

Indeed they would reject the truth. However, you miss the point. Charis isn't competing to reinvent technology. They are trying to bring Safehold to Terran level tech and reintroduce innovative thought. How they do that can't involve cheating because it is not a competition. The reason they have to reintroduce tech is because of the Langhorne Lie. Therefore, however Merlin goes about bringing about technological advancement can't be cheating.

You might have forgotten East Harchong. They have universal suffrage, but have more selective criteria for who can hold office. So, Merlin isn't responsible for that social advancement, Rainbow Water's and his nephew are.
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