Topic Actions

Topic Search

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests

WWII Style Fire Control?

This fascinating series is a combination of historical seafaring, swashbuckling adventure, and high technological science-fiction. Join us in a discussion!
Re: WWII Style Fire Control?
Post by captinjoehenry   » Thu Feb 07, 2019 11:40 am

captinjoehenry
Lieutenant Commander

Posts: 147
Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2015 8:36 pm

Dilandu wrote:
Weird Harold wrote:If the goal is to replace exactly WWII level fire-control with a non-electric system, then you're absolutely correct.


Well, the goal as stated was -

I'm wondering how possible it is for Charis to introduce WWII style fire control for their war ships.


Now, the simpler systems are possible. But:

Weird Harold wrote:A pneumatic telegraph to pass x-y references to a ballistics table and bearing to a gyro-stabilized gun turrets, (or even just range and bearing) would do wonders for increased accuracy and coordinated fire.


Basically the problem is, that such system would not work much better than pre-WW1 fire control systems. The rangefinder on the top provide just distance and bearing, the plotters are only calculating the elevation and lead, and turrets are training the target by themselves.

The results would probably be of Russian-Japanese war level at best.

That may be true but even WWI level fire control would give Charis a massive range and accuracy advantage. Getting all the way to WWII standards would be better but even WWI would be rather desive.
Top
Re: WWII Style Fire Control?
Post by Dilandu   » Thu Feb 07, 2019 11:53 am

Dilandu
Vice Admiral

Posts: 1965
Joined: Sat May 07, 2011 12:44 pm
Location: Russia

captinjoehenry wrote:That may be true but even WWI level fire control would give Charis a massive range and accuracy advantage. Getting all the way to WWII standards would be better but even WWI would be rather desive.


...Considering that Charis already have any possible advantage (including a large herd of pianos, lurking in Tellesberg bushes :D ), I fail to see why would they need another one.
------------------------------

- Who would won in battle between strawman Liberal-Democrat and strawman Conservative-Republican?
- Scarecrow from Oz; he was strawman before it became political.

P.S. - And he have Russian twin, to watch his back)
Top
Re: WWII Style Fire Control?
Post by captinjoehenry   » Thu Feb 07, 2019 11:56 am

captinjoehenry
Lieutenant Commander

Posts: 147
Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2015 8:36 pm

Dilandu wrote:
captinjoehenry wrote:That may be true but even WWI level fire control would give Charis a massive range and accuracy advantage. Getting all the way to WWII standards would be better but even WWI would be rather desive.


...Considering that Charis already have any possible advantage (including a large herd of pianos, lurking in Tellesberg bushes :D ), I fail to see why would they need another one.

I mean if Harchong is serious about building a risk fleet Charis could seriously need all the advantages they can get simply due to needing to keep their fleets so widely dispersed compared to their enemies fleets.
Top
Re: WWII Style Fire Control?
Post by PeterZ   » Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:33 pm

PeterZ
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 6231
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2011 12:11 pm
Location: Colorado

captinjoehenry wrote:That may be true but even WWI level fire control would give Charis a massive range and accuracy advantage. Getting all the way to WWII standards would be better but even WWI would be rather desive.
Dilandu wrote:
...Considering that Charis already have any possible advantage (including a large herd of pianos, lurking in Tellesberg bushes :D ), I fail to see why would they need another one.
captinjoehenry wrote:I mean if Harchong is serious about building a risk fleet Charis could seriously need all the advantages they can get simply due to needing to keep their fleets so widely dispersed compared to their enemies fleets.

As they say in war if you aren't cheating, you aren't trying hard enough. Having mechanical computers on select ships and then having an IC rep on board those ships will allow OWL to tweak any required estimates appropriately.

As I see it, without electricity to communicate with and move the guns, some estimate for lag time needs to be used. That lag will limit just how much accuracy the mechanical computers provide, but OWL can improve if necessary with an on board IC agent. Even without the agent, the on board computer is just another bell and whistle with commercial applications. The whole idea of the ICN is to be a technology demonstrator for both other nations and the internal Charisian economy.
Top
Re: WWII Style Fire Control?
Post by Dilandu   » Thu Feb 07, 2019 1:17 pm

Dilandu
Vice Admiral

Posts: 1965
Joined: Sat May 07, 2011 12:44 pm
Location: Russia

captinjoehenry wrote:I mean if Harchong is serious about building a risk fleet Charis could seriously need all the advantages they can get simply due to needing to keep their fleets so widely dispersed compared to their enemies fleets.


And so what? The cost of having an overseas empire is always the problem of concentration.
As they say in war if you aren't cheating, you aren't trying hard enough. Having mechanical computers on select ships and then having an IC rep on board those ships will allow OWL to tweak any required estimates appropriately.


There are cheating, and there are blatant unfair game. Charis enjoyed the second; they only need to ask, and good uncle Merlin would gave them anything they want, dismissing any concerns with "it's for the great good, anyway"
------------------------------

- Who would won in battle between strawman Liberal-Democrat and strawman Conservative-Republican?
- Scarecrow from Oz; he was strawman before it became political.

P.S. - And he have Russian twin, to watch his back)
Top
Re: WWII Style Fire Control?
Post by Dilandu   » Thu Feb 07, 2019 1:24 pm

Dilandu
Vice Admiral

Posts: 1965
Joined: Sat May 07, 2011 12:44 pm
Location: Russia

PeterZ wrote: Even without the agent, the on board computer is just another bell and whistle with commercial applications. The whole idea of the ICN is to be a technology demonstrator for both other nations and the internal Charisian economy.


Sorry, but the whole idea of RCN is "we want bigger toys, so no one else would dare to question our domination". :) Despite all RFC insistence that it's not the case, the text is the obvious evidence.

Just look how much pages were spend describing the marvelous, awesome, brilliantly designed Charisian "Thunderbolt" and how few - describing this pathetic, laughable, useless Dohlaran "Arbalest". Despite the fact that it is SECOND which is the interesting one, being the first really ingenious steamship on Safehold, designed and build without advanced knowledge and calculations. But only mention that we have, is that she suffered the fire in her coal supply.

So nah, the whole "technical demonstrator" thing lost all remaining credibility.
------------------------------

- Who would won in battle between strawman Liberal-Democrat and strawman Conservative-Republican?
- Scarecrow from Oz; he was strawman before it became political.

P.S. - And he have Russian twin, to watch his back)
Top
Re: WWII Style Fire Control?
Post by PeterZ   » Thu Feb 07, 2019 1:39 pm

PeterZ
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 6231
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2011 12:11 pm
Location: Colorado

captinjoehenry wrote:I mean if Harchong is serious about building a risk fleet Charis could seriously need all the advantages they can get simply due to needing to keep their fleets so widely dispersed compared to their enemies fleets.
Dilandu wrote:
And so what? The cost of having an overseas empire is always the problem of concentration.

PeterZ wrote:As they say in war if you aren't cheating, you aren't trying hard enough. Having mechanical computers on select ships and then having an IC rep on board those ships will allow OWL to tweak any required estimates appropriately.
Dilandu wrote:
There are cheating, and there are blatant unfair game. Charis enjoyed the second; they only need to ask, and good uncle Merlin would gave them anything they want, dismissing any concerns with "it's for the great good, anyway"
SPOILER
This isn't a game. It is an education. Charis is leading those other nations by the noses past their theologically generated mental blind spots. All of Merlin's suggestions facilitate Safeholdians thinking their way through innovative uses of a relatively few novel concepts. TFT pretty much stipulates just that.

So what if Charis cheats its way to dominance? If the Command Crew returns, if Chihiro returns, the IC may well be destroyed. This isn't a game for them. They will cheat their way to control Safehold if they can, while teaching all those other nations how to industrialize.

I don't believe the IC sees this as any sort of competition. They see it as a planet wide educational experience where they can control the educational environment as much as they can. The only reason they maintain a semblance of equality is to encourage others to try. Much like Archbishop Maikel explains to Irys the process of teaching rulers' children by letting them win, yet making it progressively harder as the child grows up. Eventually, the adults stop letting the child win and the competition is straight up.

The other nations are still children where industrialization and innovation is concerned.
Top
Re: WWII Style Fire Control? Spoiler
Post by PeterZ   » Thu Feb 07, 2019 1:52 pm

PeterZ
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 6231
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2011 12:11 pm
Location: Colorado

PeterZ wrote: Even without the agent, the on board computer is just another bell and whistle with commercial applications. The whole idea of the ICN is to be a technology demonstrator for both other nations and the internal Charisian economy.
Dilandu wrote:
Sorry, but the whole idea of RCN is "we want bigger toys, so no one else would dare to question our domination". :) Despite all RFC insistence that it's not the case, the text is the obvious evidence.

Just look how much pages were spend describing the marvelous, awesome, brilliantly designed Charisian "Thunderbolt" and how few - describing this pathetic, laughable, useless Dohlaran "Arbalest". Despite the fact that it is SECOND which is the interesting one, being the first really ingenious steamship on Safehold, designed and build without advanced knowledge and calculations. But only mention that we have, is that she suffered the fire in her coal supply.

So nah, the whole "technical demonstrator" thing lost all remaining credibility.
SPOILER
I am not sure you and I read the smae passages.


Those systems are described in context to what has existed in Charis in the story, not as some sort of preening by the author. All of the features are technical and are not militarily dominating. The guns and armour are not overwhelming. A simpler ship with bigger guns and heavier armour can still defeat Thuderbolt. All the technical periferals are usefull, but not decisive. Their utility is also if not more useful in other applications.

I do agree with you that Charis has cheated to where any Safehold nation what fights them straight up will get whacked easily. The reader see just how impossible such a task actually is. Those Safehoild nations just see Charis as incredibly tough, not impossibly dominant. Certainly neither Desnair nor Harchong believe that or they would not be so blatantly antagonistic. Yes, Charis cheats, so what? This isn't a polite competition, it is an educational experience to bootstrap Safehold out of the CoGA's Luddism.
Top
Re: WWII Style Fire Control?
Post by Dilandu   » Thu Feb 07, 2019 2:01 pm

Dilandu
Vice Admiral

Posts: 1965
Joined: Sat May 07, 2011 12:44 pm
Location: Russia

PeterZ wrote:This isn't a game. It is an education. Charis is leading those other nations by the noses past their theologically generated mental blind spots.


As it was mentioned several times; impossibly high goals teach nothing. And TFT basically confirm that, because we have exactly zero innovations from outside the Charis during all book.


All of Merlin's suggestions facilitate Safeholdians thinking their way through innovative uses of a relatively few novel concepts. TFT pretty much stipulates just that.


It was true until Owl started to do all the work for them. After that, all claims of "innovative thinking" basically lost any legitimacy. Not to mention, that providing Charis with geological information did not add in any way.

So what if Charis cheats its way to dominance? If the Command Crew returns, if Chihiro returns, the IC may well be destroyed. This isn't a game for them. They will cheat their way to control Safehold if they can, while teaching all those other nations how to industrialize.


(shrug) Why just don't release the programmed virus and kill anyone else on the planet except Charisians? It would be even more effective - the Command Crew could not do anything against Charis if they are the last human remaining on the planet.

I don't believe the IC sees this as any sort of competition. They see it as a planet wide educational experience where they can control the educational environment as much as they can.


Again, it doesn't seems to be working at all.

The only reason they maintain a semblance of equality is to encourage others to try. Much like Archbishop Maikel explains to Irys the process of teaching rulers' children by letting them win,


The point of "letting them win" Charis seems to be completely omitting. Currently it just deployed more and more effective hardware, while other nations could not even replicate its OLD hardware.
yet making it progressively harder as the child grows up. Eventually, the adults stop letting the child win and the competition is straight up.


Again: the point is, that the steps in right direction should be rewarded. Currently, the "reward" is nonexistent, because Charis constantly demonstrated how futile are any attempts to compete with him.

You see, if Charis wanted to persuade others to follow him, he should be JUST ABOVE them, so the possibility of actually catching up with Charis would seems probable. Instead, Charis is constantly demonstrating how awesomely superior it is. If RFC wanted to show it as "encouraging to compete", he completely failed to demonstrate it in TFT, I'm afraid.
------------------------------

- Who would won in battle between strawman Liberal-Democrat and strawman Conservative-Republican?
- Scarecrow from Oz; he was strawman before it became political.

P.S. - And he have Russian twin, to watch his back)
Top
Re: WWII Style Fire Control? Spoiler
Post by Dilandu   » Thu Feb 07, 2019 2:07 pm

Dilandu
Vice Admiral

Posts: 1965
Joined: Sat May 07, 2011 12:44 pm
Location: Russia

PeterZ wrote:Those systems are described in context to what has existed in Charis in the story, not as some sort of preening by the author. All of the features are technical and are not militarily dominating. The guns and armour are not overwhelming. A simpler ship with bigger guns and heavier armour can still defeat Thuderbolt. All the technical periferals are usefull, but not decisive. Their utility is also if not more useful in other applications.


They are absolutely decisive. I'm afraid, you just didn't knew naval history well enough to realize, how tremendously overwhelming is the advantage of steel armored cruiser of early XX century design over the wooden screw frigate of mid-XIX century design. To put it simply, its absolute. It would took more wooden warships that Safehold have at all to represent any kind of threat to single Charisian battleship.

So basically, we saw Charisian battleship in details - which is absolutely not interesting, because we did not doubt the Owl's ability to design a battleship. And what about the REALLY interesting ship, the first steam warship actually designed & build outside Charis? The only mention we have, is that she have fire in her coal storage.

I repeat: the technological theme of TFT is "look how awesome the new Charisians toys are". All other nations are specifically mentioned as just being able to copy Charisian, and less effectively.
------------------------------

- Who would won in battle between strawman Liberal-Democrat and strawman Conservative-Republican?
- Scarecrow from Oz; he was strawman before it became political.

P.S. - And he have Russian twin, to watch his back)
Top

Return to Safehold