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WWII Style Fire Control?

This fascinating series is a combination of historical seafaring, swashbuckling adventure, and high technological science-fiction. Join us in a discussion!
Re: WWII Style Fire Control?
Post by PeterZ   » Thu Feb 07, 2019 2:08 pm

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Dilandu wrote:snip

Again: the point is, that the steps in right direction should be rewarded. Currently, the "reward" is nonexistent, because Charis constantly demonstrated how futile are any attempts to compete with him.

You see, if Charis wanted to persuade others to follow him, he should be JUST ABOVE them, so the possibility of actually catching up with Charis would seems probable. Instead, Charis is constantly demonstrating how awesomely superior it is. If RFC wanted to show it as "encouraging to compete", he completely failed to demonstrate it in TFT, I'm afraid.


Obviosly, I don't agree. I think the degree of difficulty those other nations face is comparable to what humanity faces with the Gbaba. Once that actual conflict is revealed to Sfaehold, the experience with developing in competition with Charis will be seen as a valuable learning experience.
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Re: WWII Style Fire Control? Spoiler
Post by PeterZ   » Thu Feb 07, 2019 2:17 pm

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PeterZ wrote:Those systems are described in context to what has existed in Charis in the story, not as some sort of preening by the author. All of the features are technical and are not militarily dominating. The guns and armour are not overwhelming. A simpler ship with bigger guns and heavier armour can still defeat Thuderbolt. All the technical periferals are usefull, but not decisive. Their utility is also if not more useful in other applications.
Dilandu wrote:
They are absolutely decisive. I'm afraid, you just didn't knew naval history well enough to realize, how tremendously overwhelming is the advantage of steel armored cruiser of early XX century design over the wooden screw frigate of mid-XIX century design. To put it simply, its absolute. It would took more wooden warships that Safehold have at all to represent any kind of threat to single Charisian battleship.

So basically, we saw Charisian battleship in details - which is absolutely not interesting, because we did not doubt the Owl's ability to design a battleship. And what about the REALLY interesting ship, the first steam warship actually designed & build outside Charis? The only mention we have, is that she have fire in her coal storage.

I repeat: the technological theme of TFT is "look how awesome the new Charisians toys are". All other nations are specifically mentioned as just being able to copy Charisian, and less effectively.

You recognize the decisive nature of those periferals. How many on safehold do? Not many if at all. Also, Charis let Dohlar see those innovations. They let people with inside knowledge of production meathods escape to their enemies. They have the knowledge to replicate Charisian innovations, because Charis gave it to them. If the nations of Safehold accept the foundations necessary to implement those innovations, they can replicate Charisian tech. Charis hasn't asserted their dominance to prohibit those nations developing their tech. So long as they don't, then those nations CAN progress. The story describes nations doing just that.
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Re: WWII Style Fire Control?
Post by captinjoehenry   » Thu Feb 07, 2019 2:30 pm

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I would point out what we are seeing in TFT is the massive spread of Charisian tech throughout the entire world with even the most resistant country embracing the technology coming out of Charis. What we don't see is the native innovations in those countries as this series isn't really about those other countries. Just look at Desnair and their own homemade bolt action rifle and their own design of trains. So for sure there are all manner of innovations happening in other countries but we just don't see it as the series is focused on Charis not those other countries and all their fairly minor homegrown innovations. If someone came up with something game changing outside of Charis we would have heard of it but that's unlikely.
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Re: WWII Style Fire Control? Spoiler
Post by Dilandu   » Thu Feb 07, 2019 3:24 pm

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PeterZ wrote:You recognize the decisive nature of those periferals. How many on safehold do? Not many if at all. Also, Charis let Dohlar see those innovations. They let people with inside knowledge of production meathods escape to their enemies. They have the knowledge to replicate Charisian innovations, because Charis gave it to them. If the nations of Safehold accept the foundations necessary to implement those innovations, they can replicate Charisian tech. Charis hasn't asserted their dominance to prohibit those nations developing their tech. So long as they don't, then those nations CAN progress. The story describes nations doing just that.


I repeat: the major point against your position is absolute zero non-Charisian innovations in TFT. Moreover, the goal of "spreading the innovative mindset" was replaced with completely different "spreading the industrialization".
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P.S. - And he have Russian twin, to watch his back)
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Re: WWII Style Fire Control? Spoiler
Post by captinjoehenry   » Thu Feb 07, 2019 3:57 pm

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Dilandu wrote:I repeat: the major point against your position is absolute zero non-Charisian innovations in TFT. Moreover, the goal of "spreading the innovative mindset" was replaced with completely different "spreading the industrialization".

There was innovation in non Charis look at Dohlar completing designing and building a warship from scratch. And there has to have been plenty of off camera innovation by default. If you are talking about anyone else making some sort of game changer or major advancement that's frankly almost for sure not going to happen simply due to how Charis has access to Owl and is pressing forward as fast as possible. But there's plenty of innovation just none of it I bet was notable enough to mention in the book. As hearing about how someone in Dohlar came up with a 5% more efficient machine isn't all that interesting compared to what's actually in the book.
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Re: WWII Style Fire Control? Spoiler
Post by Dilandu   » Thu Feb 07, 2019 4:02 pm

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captinjoehenry wrote:There was innovation in non Charis look at Dohlar completing designing and building a warship from scratch.


Yeah, yeah. Warship, that was mentioned ONE single time - and only in connection to coal fire accident.
------------------------------

- Who would won in battle between strawman Liberal-Democrat and strawman Conservative-Republican?
- Scarecrow from Oz; he was strawman before it became political.

P.S. - And he have Russian twin, to watch his back)
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Re: WWII Style Fire Control? Spoiler
Post by captinjoehenry   » Thu Feb 07, 2019 4:12 pm

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Dilandu wrote:
captinjoehenry wrote:There was innovation in non Charis look at Dohlar completing designing and building a warship from scratch.


Yeah, yeah. Warship, that was mentioned ONE single time - and only in connection to coal fire accident.

I mean Dohlar didn't just stop with their first prototype warship. The book simply didn't deal with any military matters in general even where Charis was concerned.
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