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Potential Spoiler - Last Chapter - Din between factions

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Re: Potential Spoiler - Last Chapter - Din between factions
Post by DMcCunney   » Fri Mar 08, 2019 9:02 pm

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phillies wrote:Consider carefully the name of the number two man in the procession, the fellow whose presence was surprising, Schueler's order not being uniformly loved. Truscott, to use his original name, was responsible for what? Patient cultivation?
Sondheim was the agronimist. Truscott's expertise was animal husbandry.

I'm not sure how significant what order the Assistant Rector of Schueler's cathedral belonged to is. The more interesting question, given the general bad odor the Order of Schueler was in following the Jihad, was why a member of any other order would go for a position in a church consecrated to Schueler.
______
Dennis
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Re: Potential Spoiler - Last Chapter - Din between factions
Post by Louis R   » Sat Mar 09, 2019 1:02 am

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This one is dead easy, if you step back and take a good look at what we've been shown of Safehold society and who does what.

Of course it applies to Schueler, or rather to his order. Way too many people seem to be conflating the Order of Schueler with the Inquisition - Kaid spent an entire post upthread going on about the 'inquisitors' and their reaction to the Visitation when there may well not have been a single inquisitor present: the Schuelerites we were introduced to are in their present positions precisely because they _weren't_ inquisitors, and had in fact done their damnedest to avoid association with the Inquisition throughout the Jihad.

If they aren't inquisitors, what are they? _Educators_. What has Dilandu been going on and on about? The fact that Charis has become the fount of all, or virtually all, innovation [and not entirely without reason, actually]. What has been the object of the first phase of the Nahrmahn Plan, as far as we can tell? Enticing, bribing, bullying and deceiving Safehold into adopting industrialisation, and with it, willy-nilly, Charisian economic and social norms even among those who imagine themselves fighting tooth and nail against them. So what is the most reasonable object of the next phase of the Plan? I would submit that it would be enticing, bribing, bullying and deceiving Safehold into adopting the attitude towards the creation and application of knowledge embodied in the Royal College, because that is going to be essential to breaking the back of Langhorne's plan. Which in and of itself would give anybody committed to executing that plan - such as, AFAweK, Androcles Schueler - conniptions. And who knows? maybe Owl and Nahrmahn have come up with a way of converting the Order of Schueler into the reformed CoGA's version of the Society of Jesus.

wingfield wrote:
wingfield wrote:It is most probably something to do with St Khody but we have too little to go on in taking this any further.



First of all, one of our dogs that is supposed to have never barked is making a frightful din. If someone can suggest that the use of the name Operation Androcles can apply to something other than the Archangel Schueler, then I’d be most interested. I certainly haven’t seen anything else that comes remotely close.

< snip >
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Re: Potential Spoiler - Last Chapter - Din between factions
Post by Julia Minor   » Sat Mar 09, 2019 2:56 pm

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Spoz wrote:Khody dies, and somebody declares him a saint. Schueler presumably, at least to start the process.

Then somebody decides that there should be an order to preserve his memory. Possibly Schueler, possibly somebody else.


The way Nynian was talking when she told Merlin about the Sisters, it sounded to me like all the seijins who fell during the War got orders founded to tend their tombs. Which would mean the SSK was founded as part of a coverup -- clearly, Seijin Kohdy fell in battle against the Forces Of Evil, or he wouldn't have an order founded in his name.

I wonder what happened to the orders founded to tend the tombs of the "official" seijin roster? Did they get absorbed into one of the major orders, or could there still be a few minor orders scattered around Safehold with the blessed weapons of their seijin patron in the holy-of-holies?
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Re: Potential Spoiler - Last Chapter - Din between factions
Post by Louis R   » Sat Mar 09, 2019 6:18 pm

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Another point, since it doesn't seem that anyone has followed up on the original reminder of this one - and it's critical: certainly, as some have said repeatedly, the IC have the original text of the Writ. Who wants to bet that the Temple does _not_ also have it, carefully labelled as Ascher's 'twisted version of the true Writ'? Any attempt to use that would prove beyond reasonable doubt that the whole thing was a demonic trap. In fact, any attempt to present an alternative Writ runs afoul of that description, which is doubtless why it was created in the first place, but suppression of the original in particular makes it essential that any copy that is missed can be demonstrated to be due to Ascher.

wingfield wrote:< snip >
Finally, we know that the Inner Circle has the entire contents of Seijin Khody’s diary and knows what the Spanish text parts of it say. The Inner Circle also has the original text of the Writ from before the alterations made by or at the direction of Chihiro, as well as the true version of ancient events to substitute for the lies of Chihiro in the Testament delivered to the cathedral of Schueler. There would be no need to invent anything. The documentation to be used in the text of the Testament, duly imprinted upon the miraculous paper, is already in the possession of the Inner Circle.

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Re: Potential Spoiler - Last Chapter - Din between factions
Post by DMcCunney   » Mon Mar 11, 2019 2:50 pm

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Louis R wrote:This one is dead easy, if you step back and take a good look at what we've been shown of Safehold society and who does what.

Of course it applies to Schueler, or rather to his order. Way too many people seem to be conflating the Order of Schueler with the Inquisition - Kaid spent an entire post upthread going on about the 'inquisitors' and their reaction to the Visitation when there may well not have been a single inquisitor present: the Schuelerites we were introduced to are in their present positions precisely because they _weren't_ inquisitors, and had in fact done their damnedest to avoid association with the Inquisition throughout the Jihad.

If they aren't inquisitors, what are they? _Educators_.
The Order of Schueler being conflated with the Inquisition us understandable. Not all Schuelerites were Inquisitors, but all Inquisitors we know about were Schuelerites. (And when Zhaspar Clyntahn became Grand Inquisitor and ramped up the Inquisition to add more fanatical members to do what he desired, I highly doubt he recruited from any other order. What members of any other order would want the job? The things that made them enter the orders they did would not be the sorts of things Inquisitors would do.)

A bit of background we don't have would be of interest. I'm guessing from TextEv that when someone decides they have a vocation be be a priest, they enter seminary, and "undergraduate" training, so to speak, is the same for all. Graduate training, like what you need to know to be a Pasqualate, or Bedardist, or Langhornite, or what have you comes next. A priest might have decided before entering seminary what order he wants to me a member of, but I don't think that's required. (For that matter, are there ordained priests who aren't members of any order?)

And holy orders have heads of the orders, so there will likely be a hierarchy within orders separate from the overall hierarchy of Mother Church, and the head of an order is likely to have various sorts of authority over the members.

As Grand Inquisitor, Zhaspar Clyntahn was head of the Inquisition, and Inquisitors were sworn to obey him and carry out his commands. Was he also head of the Order of Schueler? Since the Inquisition drew its members from the Order of Schueler, that seems likely, but isn't explicitly stated.

And consider the dramatic reductions Grand Vicar Rhobair imposed on the Order of Schueler following the Jihad, with many members turned over to Charis and Siddarmark if they served in the camps, or tried in ecclesiastic courts, or allowed to transfer to other orders, or simply defrocked, and the Order being divested of much of its real estate. While it still exists, it's a shadow of its former self. I kind of wonder who drew the short straw and found himself in charge of what was left.

The notion that they are primarily educators, whose job is to train Safeholdians in how they must behave to live in accordance with God's Plan is likely the best course to take as the Order tries to rebuild, and postings to parish schools as teachers is the best place for them.

(And while it's not explicit yet, I expect to see an increasing separation between Church and schools as things progress. Right now, "primary" education is a Church function, with the teachers in schools drawn from the priesthood. But higher education increasingly won't be. The Royal College in Charis is a good example, with many of the Doctors on its faculty coming from secular backgrounds. The Church of Charis supports the Royal College, but doesn't staff it or fund it.)
______
Dennis
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Re: Potential Spoiler - Last Chapter - Din between factions
Post by PMike   » Mon Mar 11, 2019 4:50 pm

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DMcCunney wrote:quoting Spoz Plus there are the events surrounding the formation of the SSK.

snip

Dropping a rock on the original abbey of the Sisters of Saint Kohdy to eliminate all traces of Kohdy might have been a "while you're at it..." instruction from Chihiro.
Sounds to me like some sort of factional dispute with Khody’s adherents (Schueler?) on one side, and possibly Chihiro’s adherents on the other.
I think we can say the the War Against the Fallen was a factional dispute. The core of the Fallen (referred to as demons in the history written by Chihiro) were navy and marine personnel serving under Commodore Pei in the naval escort accompanying the colonization fleet, who became a planetary police force and SAR group after their warships were discarded. Given the nature of their duties, they would be seen as Angels by the colonists, and I can see them convincing the colonists they interacted with that Chihiro had turned to evil and they were opposing him, but they needed to disappear into the population and conceal the fact they were Angels to be able to do so. (The Fallen who defeated Kohdy has been mayor of the town Kohdy lived it at the time and a friend of his, so at least some successfully blended in.)

If Langhorne was not the one who actually carried out the OBS strike against the Alexandria Enclave and the Fallen had evidence Chihiro was responsible, I can see them deciding to act against him.
In such a scenario, the SSK with the diary, the Stone and the Key, and the apparition with the Testimony could all be a master plan of Schueler to correct what either always believed, or come to believe was an error. And an AI in the Cathedral could easily provide the apparition - look at what Owl is capable of.
That's roughly my thinking. The gear to create Schueler's apparition and the holy book it left behind wouldn't need to be as sophisticated as what Owl can do.
______
Dennis


I think I'm board with this.

Couple of points...According to Paityr Wylsynn, the return of an archangel might be seen hinted at "within 20 years of the war of the fallen (ATST, Chapter VIII). In TFT, it says the Cathedral of the Holy Schueler (where the visitation occurred) was specifically built to guard and sanctify Schueler's tomb. No DIRECT connection yet, but the timing of the Wylsynn "prophecy" is interesting.

Also, on the distance from Brokhamp to the Temple...is this far enough that Schueler could rakurai the temple/Zyon and not hit Brokhamp? (related question--is the "rock" attack on the SSK the same as a rakurai attack?). In other words, were Chihiro and Schueler at odds with each other, both with enough firepower for mutually assured destruction?


Whacky theory--going way out on a limb. Schueler was on the fence with the Langhorne plan, following orders prior to the rakurai attack on Pei Shan-Wei. After that, he joined Kau-Yung. BUT, he followed the same archetype as Duchairn, pretending to go along with Chihiro, knowing the only way to defeat Chihiro was from right next to him. AT some key point, he got control of the Rakurai and that kept Chihiro in check.

I know that's a bit out there, but Safehold is a fantasy world, so why not throw stuff at the wall to see what sticks.
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Re: Potential Spoiler - Last Chapter - Din between factions
Post by Cyradis4   » Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:06 pm

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Well, I thought I'd try to apply some thoughts to this. So, when I first reading the book, I thought this:

2nd to last Chapter: What are you guys (IC) doing??? you waited 6 months and deemed that enough time? If *I* were some being / AI / something-returning-after-1,000-years, I would first:

1. NOT immediately start doing stuff, and instead wait and observe. An AI may be capable of hyper-heuristic mode, but unless something has been operating SNARC's and stuff, there's going to be some pretty big gaps in their data that they'd want to fill before doing anything drastic. After all, the only things entered into the Temple's memory is likely to be what the CoGA knows.... and they don't know everything.

2. If the woken critter has control of the OBS.... Then assuming the bombardment system keeps records of strikes and sensor data (and what systems *don't* keep such records?), I'd know that the OBS had taken out multiple SNARCS in the last quarter decade. So, Flag on the Play please! Lets investigate more and not take immediate action until we know more!

3. Whether or not 2 above is valid, I'd see that there have been Drastic Changes influenced by Old Federation People: Merlin people, c'mon! He's a legend by now on Safehold, and what self respecting Terran doesn't know *Merlin*... and what Safeholdian *should* know him? If I were a critter waking up and I saw new legends of a "Merlin", my first thought would be.... how does Safehold know about him? And the 2nd would be to investigate. At which point I would find Nimue, the Lady of the Lake, as well. Which would have me scratching my head wondering why all the King Arthur references, but I digress. Seeing those two names attached to legendary "Seijin" at the center of the Empire charging at the front of all the changes (who mysteriously appeared right as the wheels came off), would, to me, be a flare-lit tip-off that this whole situation needs a lot more investigation. And that there are likely other high tech operators with who-knows how much penetration into the world, from who-knows where.

So, based on 2 and 3, the woken critter, if its a VR personality or a half-capable AI, *knows* that there is another high-tech enclave on the planet with it. Ergo, make no moves immediately. And depending on its thought process, who knows how long it could take to make that decision, and therefore.... expecting an immediate reaction from the visitation, or even one within a year, strikes me as super fast response to a situation that has undoubtedly blindsided the woken critter.

So, I hit the last chapter thinking the IC were utter dunces for waiting such a short period of time. But that isn't the question, the question is, what is the Scheuller visitation?

So based on the theories I've heard here and my own thoughts, I think it could be:

1. Something Canned
Most probably not this, because the language was up-to-date. If the "canned" response was updated, then you are getting into AI territory.

2. The IC
This is a drastic change to the IC's previous views and actions, which was to create lasting change by changing the underlying social matrix and how it views religion and technology. The Appearance is a direct attack on the Holy Writ by an Archangel: its very likely to trigger a massive religious war, which could do one of two things: totally trash nations currently trying to industrialize (which is counter to what the IC wants) or pushing tech faster... which might trigger the development of electricity and cause a Rakuri strike. Or, most likely, do both.... Either way, its a huge risk that will cause massive loss of life. I just can't see Merlin or Nimue *doing* that. Or Cayleb or Sharleyan, for that matter. And certainly not *laughing* about it, like they were doing!
So, my conclusion, is its not the IC. Too much risk, not enough reward for that massive amount of life lost. I could be wrong (see above where I called them dunces).

3. AI / VR personality
If it woke up on the 1st of the year, and observed, it could have put this together and chosen to do it. So it could be this, and I see no reason to think that a VR person or an AI would be incapable of generating an updated plan. And we would have no idea what it would choose to do, so this could be what it wants. Who knows?
So could be this.

4. A 3rd party
If they had Fed Tech and access to recordings of Scheuller, they could do this. Would they have? Without knowing who they are, who knows?


Either way, given that the IC does *not* want to be caught in a lie, the hints reported here for how the CoC responds to the reports of the Testament are the only responses they can have, based on all of the above: first "We don't know", and then "there might be something to this".

Can't wait for the next one, though I really hope its easier to follow the action. This one seemed.... disjointed.

My two cents. :)

C4.
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Re: Potential Spoiler - Last Chapter - Din between factions
Post by DMcCunney   » Tue Mar 12, 2019 7:17 pm

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PMike wrote:Couple of points...According to Paityr Wylsynn, the return of an archangel might be seen hinted at "within 20 years of the war of the fallen (ATST, Chapter VIII). In TFT, it says the Cathedral of the Holy Schueler (where the visitation occurred) was specifically built to guard and sanctify Schueler's tomb. No DIRECT connection yet, but the timing of the Wylsynn "prophecy" is interesting.
It is indeed.
Also, on the distance from Brokhamp to the Temple...is this far enough that Schueler could rakurai the temple/Zyon and not hit Brokhamp? (related question--is the "rock" attack on the SSK the same as a rakurai attack?). In other words, were Chihiro and Schueler at odds with each other, both with enough firepower for mutually assured destruction?
That presumes each can control the OBS.

If a stored virtual personality of Schueler is tucked away under his cathedral, I think it's far enough away. We don't know how precise OBS targeting can be, but I think it's at least precise enough to do that. (IIRC, in OAR Merlin muses about the attack the reduces the Alexandria Enclave to Armageddon Reef, and the pattern of the strikes making it probable a human was in control and providing targeting criteria. He thought it was Langhorne, but that might not have been the case)

But we don't know just how the OBS is now controlled, or even if it is. I think we can assume there is a control station somewhere in the Temple, but whether anyone currently alive has access is questionable. And if it can be controlled by a virtual personality in a VR unit, that personality would be under the Temple. I see Chihiro keeping very tight control of that resource, with access restricted only to those he totally trusts. If my suspicions about the relationship between Chihiro and Schueler toward the end are correct, Schueler would not be on the approved list.

And even if a VR copy of Schueler could drop a rock on the Temple, what would he get by doing so? The descriptions sound like the Temple might just survive being hit by a dropped rock, and there is also the issue of collateral damage to anything around it. Destroying the Temple won't be his goal.

Schueler's apparition in his cathedral, and the Testimony of Schueler it leaves behind, is a doctrinal grenade with the pin pulled tossed at the Vicarate. It is explicitly claiming the Holy Writ is not inerrant, and at least parts of it are outright lies written by Chihiro, who could edit and change the Writ after the fact.

(I expect one statement in the Testimony will be that Schueler did not write the Punishment of Schueler that appears in his book, and it was an after the fact insertion by Chihiro he did not like but could not prevent.)

And everything anyone knows about the history of Safehold and the War Against the Fallen is in the Book of Chihiro. What if the veracity of that can be questioned? What if Shan Wei didn't Fall, and wasn't the betrayer of God's plan and Safehold's version of Satan? Expect Vicars doing wyverns minus heads impressions dealing with that one. :P
Whacky theory--going way out on a limb. Schueler was on the fence with the Langhorne plan, following orders prior to the rakurai attack on Pei Shan-Wei. After that, he joined Kau-Yung. BUT, he followed the same archetype as Duchairn, pretending to go along with Chihiro, knowing the only way to defeat Chihiro was from right next to him. AT some key point, he got control of the Rakurai and that kept Chihiro in check.
Agreed with the first part, but not the second.

Chihiro was Assistant Administrator of Operation Ark. He was originally Langhorne's Chief of Staff, but got promoted to Assistant Administrator in a reorg just before the colonists were awakened as Adams and Eves. As such, he was Langhorne's alternate if something happened to him, and the legal successor to take over. Schueler would have considered himself under Chihiro's command and followed his orders.

The big question I can see is precisely who ordered and carried out the OBS strike on the Alexandria Enclave. IIRC, the Fallen who defeated Kohdy suggested it might actually have been Chihiro.

Langhorne, as Administrator, might have been considered the one who could authorize and carry out such a strike. If Chihiro did so, without explicit orders from Langhorne to do it, "exceeded his authority" would likely be the politest statement anyone not firmly in his pocket might make. If Schueler poked around a bit after Kohdy's visit to Zion to talk to him about what the Fallen had said, and decided the Fallen may have known what he as talking about, I can see him turning against Chihiro.

But Chihiro was firmly in control at that point, and publicly opposing him would have been a good way to get dead too. I think Schueler pretended to believe whatever story Chihiro tried to fob him off with if he did ask Chihiro what was going on, and decided longer term action was called for.
I know that's a bit out there, but Safehold is a fantasy world, so why not throw stuff at the wall to see what sticks.
That is what we do here... :P
______
Dennis
Last edited by DMcCunney on Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Potential Spoiler - Last Chapter - Din between factions
Post by Peter2   » Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:40 am

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Cyradis4 wrote:Well, I thought I'd try to apply some thoughts to this. So, when I first reading the book, I thought this:

2nd to last Chapter: What are you guys (IC) doing??? you waited 6 months and deemed that enough time? If *I* were some being / AI / something-returning-after-1,000-years, I would first:

1. NOT immediately start doing stuff, and instead wait and observe. An AI may be capable of hyper-heuristic mode, but unless something has been operating SNARC's and stuff, there's going to be some pretty big gaps in their data that they'd want to fill before doing anything drastic. After all, the only things entered into the Temple's memory is likely to be what the CoGA knows.... and they don't know everything.

2. If the woken critter has control of the OBS.... Then assuming the bombardment system keeps records of strikes and sensor data (and what systems *don't* keep such records?), I'd know that the OBS had taken out multiple SNARCS in the last quarter decade. So, Flag on the Play please! Lets investigate more and not take immediate action until we know more!

3. Whether or not 2 above is valid, I'd see that there have been Drastic Changes influenced by Old Federation People: Merlin people, c'mon! He's a legend by now on Safehold, and what self respecting Terran doesn't know *Merlin*... and what Safeholdian *should* know him? If I were a critter waking up and I saw new legends of a "Merlin", my first thought would be.... how does Safehold know about him? And the 2nd would be to investigate. At which point I would find Nimue, the Lady of the Lake, as well. Which would have me scratching my head wondering why all the King Arthur references, but I digress. Seeing those two names attached to legendary "Seijin" at the center of the Empire charging at the front of all the changes (who mysteriously appeared right as the wheels came off), would, to me, be a flare-lit tip-off that this whole situation needs a lot more investigation. And that there are likely other high tech operators with who-knows how much penetration into the world, from who-knows where.

So, based on 2 and 3, the woken critter, if its a VR personality or a half-capable AI, *knows* that there is another high-tech enclave on the planet with it. Ergo, make no moves immediately. And depending on its thought process, who knows how long it could take to make that decision, and therefore.... expecting an immediate reaction from the visitation, or even one within a year, strikes me as super fast response to a situation that has undoubtedly blindsided the woken critter.

So, I hit the last chapter thinking the IC were utter dunces for waiting such a short period of time. But that isn't the question, the question is, what is the Scheuller visitation?

So based on the theories I've heard here and my own thoughts, I think it could be:

1. Something Canned
Most probably not this, because the language was up-to-date. If the "canned" response was updated, then you are getting into AI territory.

2. The IC
This is a drastic change to the IC's previous views and actions, which was to create lasting change by changing the underlying social matrix and how it views religion and technology. The Appearance is a direct attack on the Holy Writ by an Archangel: its very likely to trigger a massive religious war, which could do one of two things: totally trash nations currently trying to industrialize (which is counter to what the IC wants) or pushing tech faster... which might trigger the development of electricity and cause a Rakuri strike. Or, most likely, do both.... Either way, its a huge risk that will cause massive loss of life. I just can't see Merlin or Nimue *doing* that. Or Cayleb or Sharleyan, for that matter. And certainly not *laughing* about it, like they were doing!
So, my conclusion, is its not the IC. Too much risk, not enough reward for that massive amount of life lost. I could be wrong (see above where I called them dunces).

3. AI / VR personality
If it woke up on the 1st of the year, and observed, it could have put this together and chosen to do it. So it could be this, and I see no reason to think that a VR person or an AI would be incapable of generating an updated plan. And we would have no idea what it would choose to do, so this could be what it wants. Who knows?
So could be this.

4. A 3rd party
If they had Fed Tech and access to recordings of Scheuller, they could do this. Would they have? Without knowing who they are, who knows?


Either way, given that the IC does *not* want to be caught in a lie, the hints reported here for how the CoC responds to the reports of the Testament are the only responses they can have, based on all of the above: first "We don't know", and then "there might be something to this".

Can't wait for the next one, though I really hope its easier to follow the action. This one seemed.... disjointed.

My two cents. :)

C4.


I'm with C4 on this.

The spoken message in Schueler's Temple cannot be a canned message unless RFC has squirreled away somewhere a Safehold version of Hari Seldon – which I consider unlikely. RFC likes to play tricks with our expectations, but he also plays fair, and there has been no hint of any such capability anywhere. For this latter reason, I would also give 3rd party intervention a low probability.

I think it is also unlikely that the communication bombshell is a spoof by the Owl/Nahrman/Merlin axis. There will have to be a fair amount of factual detail in Schueler's book, and noboby knows yet what is contained in the Thing Under The Temple. If there are factual inconsistencies between Schueler's book and what turns up in there, there are going to have to be efforts to explain these away, which will lead to further inconsistencies, and at some point the whole tissue of fabrications will fall apart. The sky will then metaphorically turn black with chickens coming home to roost, and the probable outcome won't be good for anybody. I strongly suspect that Merlin and Co. are fully aware of this.

Therefore I would back an AI/VR personality of some description. Who, what and where it is, I have no idea.
.
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Re: Potential Spoiler - Last Chapter - Din between factions
Post by PMike   » Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:01 pm

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DMcCunney wrote:
PMike wrote:Also, on the distance from Brokhamp to the Temple...is this far enough that Schueler could rakurai the temple/Zyon and not hit Brokhamp? (related question--is the "rock" attack on the SSK the same as a rakurai attack?). In other words, were Chihiro and Schueler at odds with each other, both with enough firepower for mutually assured destruction?
That presumes each can control the OBS.

That is what we do here... :P
______
Dennis



Thanks for identifying that ambiguity in my argument. I'm wondering if Chihiro destroyed the original SSK enclave in a "rakurai-like" manner but didn't use the OBS. The idea I had was that Chihiro still controlled substantial power (maybe Hamilcar) but that Schueler had taken control of, maybe "hacked", the OBS software. Mutually assured destruction and therefore stalemate.
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