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Spoilerish. "Swarm ship"

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Spoilerish. "Swarm ship"
Post by SilverbladeTE   » Fri Feb 01, 2019 5:29 pm

SilverbladeTE
Lieutenant Commander

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Considering Charis.will.have steam turbines and has large transport ships...and that torpedoes might be possible but "gun boats" surely will (ala WW2 small craft)
And Charis found how painful commerce raiders were....
And they might have glass reinforced plastic as.I suggested
AND they will hopefully have autocannon and machine guns


Imagine a transport ship converted with dock in stern, carrying 20+ light craft to raise mayhem on coastal waters and maybe commando raids ashore.

Problem normally is risk of losing larger vessels in shallower areas...as again Charis found out to its cost
Also, its difficult to run down every ship in an area with a few destroyers, Where as a score of more of gun boats can cover large area quickly and wreck many cargo ships.


Of course...enemies might use of the same plan, even if they cannot make high speed boats.


Something along.lines of a 20mm cannon on front, 40mm on rear, pair of dual .50 cal machine guns on each side of bridge and a pair of torpedoes or mines.
Laying mines at.night along shipping route is so VERY effective!

Battleships are cool...but ambushing an enemy fleet about to land troops by swarming them with your torpedo boats is much much cheaper and less risk of mass losses!
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Re: Spoilerish. "Swarm ship"
Post by SilverbladeTE   » Sat Feb 02, 2019 9:07 am

SilverbladeTE
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Posts: 146
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P.S.
I know there's a term for a ship with such design, a "well dock"
But I have no idea if there is a term for one designed to transport and service gun or torpedo boats?
It's not exactly a "depot ship", I don't think?
Thus "swarm ship" is best I can offer, lol :)
Send a plague unto your enemies....

"Gun boat" as in small , fast heavily armed like some of the American PT and British Vosper boats.
Not the larger coastal patrol vessels.

To paraphrase Merlin, I am not a "subtle sea creature", so naval nomenclature is not my forte, lol.

With deck cranes possibly carry some boats on deck as was done with landing and some gun boats in WW2?


40mm or 6 pounder or similar could sink much of the small coastal craft used by commerce and military.
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Re: Spoilerish. "Swarm ship"
Post by WeberFan   » Sat Feb 02, 2019 9:22 am

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I could see the logic of the technology, if not the military requirement (at least for Charis).
- Small hull / small displacement (perhaps 40-50 feet?)
- Oil-fired Praigyr steam powerplant
- Small crew
- Carried by a mothership
- Limited armament, likely forward-firing

The biggest drawback in my mind - it popped up immediately when I read the original post - is the stability of the gun platform. We already know that even a small amount of movement of the platform will have a huge impact on the trajectory of the projectile. So vessel moves due to wave action (as it surely will) you're going to get a LOT of variability in projectile trajectories. Two ways immediately come to mind to get around this:
- For a forward-firing gun, get really close before shooting (but this had drawbacks that should be self evident).
- Develop an alcohol-based fuel and use that for a new torpedo (but then you'd just have the WW II PT boat writ small wouldn't you).
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Re: Spoilerish. "Swarm ship"
Post by Dilandu   » Sat Feb 02, 2019 3:38 pm

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Location: Russia

And how would you coordinate between units?
------------------------------

- Who would won in battle between strawman Liberal-Democrat and strawman Conservative-Republican?
- Scarecrow from Oz; he was strawman before it became political.

P.S. - And he have Russian twin, to watch his back)
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Re: Spoilerish. "Swarm ship"
Post by DMcCunney   » Sat Feb 02, 2019 4:12 pm

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SilverbladeTE wrote:P.S.
I know there's a term for a ship with such design, a "well dock"
But I have no idea if there is a term for one designed to transport and service gun or torpedo boats?
It's not exactly a "depot ship", I don't think?
They're called "tenders."

A variety existed in WWII, for things like submarine and destroyer flotillas and seaplanes. They were essentially armed service and supply ships. They were not responsible for transporting what they serviced to where they were deployed - they supplied and maintained them on station.

If you are talking about smaller craft like landing craft or PT boats that could not get the the deployment area under their own power, heavy freighters would deliver them, then return home after discharging the cargo.
______
Dennis
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Re: Spoilerish. "Swarm ship"
Post by SilverbladeTE   » Sun Feb 03, 2019 12:15 am

SilverbladeTE
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Posts: 146
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:14 am

DMcCunney wrote:
SilverbladeTE wrote:P.S.
I know there's a term for a ship with such design, a "well dock"
But I have no idea if there is a term for one designed to transport and service gun or torpedo boats?
It's not exactly a "depot ship", I don't think?
They're called "tenders."

A variety existed in WWII, for things like submarine and destroyer flotillas and seaplanes. They were essentially armed service and supply ships. They were not responsible for transporting what they serviced to where they were deployed - they supplied and maintained them on station.

If you are talking about smaller craft like landing craft or PT boats that could not get the the deployment area under their own power, heavy freighters would deliver them, then return home after discharging the cargo.
______
Dennis


Ah thanks for that!:)
These would be for transport, considering the length of some oceanic routes etc having a ship able to carry and operate them, especially in the different set up Safehold has, could be very useful to any side in coming conflicts.

You'd need a well deck to operate and repair enough boats to be useful, presumably with lifting gear to raise boats internally for maintenance.
You have to be able to send your boats out in numbers, quickly, so relying purely on deck or cargo hold wouldn't be good enough, I think.

Initially, of course would have to be smaller craft like the PT boats until manufacturing and tech advances both the size/capabilities of the small ships and the, ahem, "carrier" ;)

Not just Charis of course, Germany did well with commerce raiders.
No reason Desnair or South Harchong couldn't pull this off. They may not get really high speed boats (though maybe eventually or by breakthrough) but you could still make small fast ones dirt cheap and less concern on longevity of the engines ss they are not in frequent use...perfectly capable of destroying merchant ships, or military ones caught off guard like the PT and British boats did when able.

Battleships are very expensive
Destroyers if needed to protect your flotilla, and the transport ship with lots of small boats are not only enormously cheaper, they put vastly less strain on your manufacturing capability and usefully, less harm to your national pride if sank...and lots of pride earned if such "Mosquitos" sink any big enemy ships....
Headaches caused by a bunch of such flotillas on your coastal traffic etc would be really bad news.
Mining the hell out of a strait or manor harbour AFTER they carry out such an attack could lead to lot of destruction as enemy tries to catch you or relocate vulnerable ships

Mines are a very good use of such craft
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Re: Spoilerish. "Swarm ship"
Post by SilverbladeTE   » Sun Feb 03, 2019 12:17 am

SilverbladeTE
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Posts: 146
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Dilandu wrote:And how would you coordinate between units?

Humans made do before radio, you know :p
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Re: Spoilerish. "Swarm ship"
Post by SilverbladeTE   » Sun Feb 03, 2019 12:26 am

SilverbladeTE
Lieutenant Commander

Posts: 146
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:14 am

WeberFan wrote:I could see the logic of the technology, if not the military requirement (at least for Charis).
- Small hull / small displacement (perhaps 40-50 feet?)
- Oil-fired Praigyr steam powerplant
- Small crew
- Carried by a mothership
- Limited armament, likely forward-firing

The biggest drawback in my mind - it popped up immediately when I read the original post - is the stability of the gun platform. We already know that even a small amount of movement of the platform will have a huge impact on the trajectory of the projectile. So vessel moves due to wave action (as it surely will) you're going to get a LOT of variability in projectile trajectories. Two ways immediately come to mind to get around this:
- For a forward-firing gun, get really close before shooting (but this had drawbacks that should be self evident).
- Develop an alcohol-based fuel and use that for a new torpedo (but then you'd just have the WW II PT boat writ small wouldn't you).


Most.such ships seem to have the largest gun on the rear deck, actually.
And they used speed, surprise and darkness to get in close when dealing with armed opponents.
Barges, civilian cargo ships etc aren't much of an issue when it comes to gun fire.

Note that chemically powered torpedoes are possible even air compression can be done without electricity as well.
They may not be super fast or long ranged but they'd be a hell of a lot better than nothing and even the small torpedoes carried by them could be deadly.
How much compartmentalization will the enemy ship have?
WW1 vessels even those upgraded between the wars, tended to have woeful under water protection.
The Inner Circle understands this risk...will others spend time on such designs etc?

And as said, these little craft can also lay hellacious mine fields because they can get right into shipping channels, estuaries or even harbours at night!
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Re: Spoilerish. "Swarm ship"
Post by SilverbladeTE   » Sun Feb 03, 2019 7:49 am

SilverbladeTE
Lieutenant Commander

Posts: 146
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:14 am

Dilandu wrote:And how would you coordinate between units?



On a more serious note, working from a "base ship" would help hugely with initial planning and coordination.
After that...oil fired signal lamps, very pistols, signal rockets and heliographs are already in use and would do for most of a flotilla's needs IF they are well trained and well prepared and IF the weather and Demon Murphy didn't play "Night on Bald Mountain" on them.

If...yeah, there's a deadly caveat for ya, sigh :(

Nothing's perfect and War is the veritable Handmaiden of Chaos and Corporal Cluster**** :lol:
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Re: Spoilerish. "Swarm ship"
Post by Vinea   » Sun Feb 03, 2019 11:03 am

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Posts: 37
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2018 2:47 pm

DMcCunney wrote:
SilverbladeTE wrote:P.S.
I know there's a term for a ship with such design, a "well dock"
But I have no idea if there is a term for one designed to transport and service gun or torpedo boats?
It's not exactly a "depot ship", I don't think?
They're called "tenders."

A variety existed in WWII, for things like submarine and destroyer flotillas and seaplanes. They were essentially armed service and supply ships. They were not responsible for transporting what they serviced to where they were deployed - they supplied and maintained them on station.

If you are talking about smaller craft like landing craft or PT boats that could not get the the deployment area under their own power, heavy freighters would deliver them, then return home after discharging the cargo.
______
Dennis


Torpedo boat carriers were a thing for a short period beyond just having tenders.

http://www.navypedia.org/ships/uk/brit_dd_vulcan.htm

Coordination without radio is doable within visual range for swarm tactics using blinker or semaphore. Raiding without radio limits range as finding the mothership without a radio is problematic if it has to move differently than planned.

Corvettes/frigates are better suited for that.
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