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Glass reinforced.plastic?

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Glass reinforced.plastic?
Post by SilverbladeTE   » Thu Jan 31, 2019 7:41 pm

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This I think, should be a possible technology now that they have petrochemical industry starting?

This could be extremely useful
British found wooden rifle stocks warped over time as they absorbed moisture and threw aim off, also, heavy!
Making them of GRP you avoid those problems and can mould for comfort or new designs

Small ship hulls
With turbines coming, high speed gunboats with GRP hulls could be very handy in all kinds of ways.

Aircraft hulls, from zeppelin gondolas to biplane fuselages etc

Avoiding moisture problems for vehicles's bodies will be huge help.
With Owl's tech base, be easier to come up with formulae and industrial processes.

And, consumer goods....
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Re: Glass reinforced.plastic?
Post by DMcCunney   » Sat Feb 02, 2019 9:04 am

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SilverbladeTE wrote:This I think, should be a possible technology now that they have petrochemical industry starting?
You seem to be assuming the plastics are petrochemical byproducts, and you need an oil industry to make them. That isn't always the case. See https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=34&t=6
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Dennis
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Re: Glass reinforced.plastic?
Post by WeberFan   » Sat Feb 02, 2019 9:12 am

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DMcCunney wrote:
SilverbladeTE wrote:This I think, should be a possible technology now that they have petrochemical industry starting?
You seem to be assuming the plastics are petrochemical byproducts, and you need an oil industry to make them. That isn't always the case. See https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=34&t=6
______
Dennis


Certainly not for all, but for most of the more commonly-used ones. Yes, of course there are workarounds and many cases, but to get truly economical scale production it's hard to get away from oil-based petrochemicals. Ergo the prefix "petro..."
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Re: Glass reinforced.plastic?
Post by SilverbladeTE   » Sun Feb 03, 2019 12:31 am

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DMcCunney wrote:
SilverbladeTE wrote:This I think, should be a possible technology now that they have petrochemical industry starting?
You seem to be assuming the plastics are petrochemical byproducts, and you need an oil industry to make them. That isn't always the case. See https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=34&t=6
______
Dennis


Also...glues.
Plywood was around centuries before the petro chemical industry began.
However, with that industry etc you could make huge volumes of *marine* plywood and other forms.

So, torpedo boats to aircraft can be made in numbers in years to come, in Charis ;)

GRP just has some extremely good advantages for some applications but will take time to mature as an industry even with the Inner Circle's help
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Re: Glass reinforced.plastic?
Post by Theemile   » Tue Feb 05, 2019 9:29 am

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SilverbladeTE wrote:
Also...glues.
Plywood was around centuries before the petro chemical industry began.
However, with that industry etc you could make huge volumes of *marine* plywood and other forms.

So, torpedo boats to aircraft can be made in numbers in years to come, in Charis ;)

GRP just has some extremely good advantages for some applications but will take time to mature as an industry even with the Inner Circle's help


Who needs fiberglass - there are "natural" fibers in the Safehold verse (Iron thisle) with strength qualities similiar to standard E-Glass fiberglass. All you need is a good resin, a form and something akin to gelcoat to make smooth surfaces and you can make Fiber-Thread boats.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Glass reinforced.plastic?
Post by DMcCunney   » Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:59 am

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SilverbladeTE wrote:Also...glues.
Plywood was around centuries before the petro chemical industry began.
However, with that industry etc you could make huge volumes of *marine* plywood and other forms.

So, torpedo boats to aircraft can be made in numbers in years to come, in Charis ;)
We are talking past each other. All of those things are useful, and within Charis's capabilities.

But this is another instance oif the question I asked at the beginning of this thread, as to who would actually build monitors.

Tell me why the Charis military needs any of this? What is the threat environment? Who might Charis have to fight that would require any of this stuff?

The best navy after the ICN is the Dohloran navy, but Charis is doing it's level best to make Dohlor a peer and an ally. The last thing Charis or Dohlor want to do is fight each other again.

Who's left? Desnair hates Charis, but doesn't really have a navy, and won't develop one any time soon. They simply don't have the infrastructure to build one, and won't have it for some time. They do potentially have the money, but you don't conjure up the capacity to build modern warships quickly.

Emperor Zhyou Zhwo in Harchong hates Charis, but has no navy. I'm amused by Grand Duke North Wind Rising's idea of fixating Zhyou Zhwo's attention on building an actual navy, as a way to keep him out of worse mischief, But he's starting from behind Desnair in having the infrastructure to build one.

Some folks in Siddarmark hate Charis, but given the economic and political meltdown it's undergoing, I don't see it actually creating a competitive navy. It doesn't have the infrastructure, the money, or the political will to do it.

Things like glues and plywood are generally useful, and I can see them being introduced for civilian proposes. I don't see them happening because the ICN needs them.
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Dennis
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Re: Glass reinforced.plastic?
Post by SilverbladeTE   » Wed Feb 06, 2019 4:38 pm

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DMcCunney wrote:
SilverbladeTE wrote:Also...glues.
Plywood was around centuries before the petro chemical industry began.
However, with that industry etc you could make huge volumes of *marine* plywood and other forms.

So, torpedo boats to aircraft can be made in numbers in years to come, in Charis ;)
We are talking past each other. All of those things are useful, and within Charis's capabilities.

But this is another instance oif the question I asked at the beginning of this thread, as to who would actually build monitors.

Tell me why the Charis military needs any of this? What is the threat environment? Who might Charis have to fight that would require any of this stuff?

The best navy after the ICN is the Dohloran navy, but Charis is doing it's level best to make Dohlor a peer and an ally. The last thing Charis or Dohlor want to do is fight each other again.

Who's left? Desnair hates Charis, but doesn't really have a navy, and won't develop one any time soon. They simply don't have the infrastructure to build one, and won't have it for some time. They do potentially have the money, but you don't conjure up the capacity to build modern warships quickly.

Emperor Zhyou Zhwo in Harchong hates Charis, but has no navy. I'm amused by Grand Duke North Wind Rising's idea of fixating Zhyou Zhwo's attention on building an actual navy, as a way to keep him out of worse mischief, But he's starting from behind Desnair in having the infrastructure to build one.

Some folks in Siddarmark hate Charis, but given the economic and political meltdown it's undergoing, I don't see it actually creating a competitive navy. It doesn't have the infrastructure, the money, or the political will to do it.

Things like glues and plywood are generally useful, and I can see them being introduced for civilian proposes. I don't see them happening because the ICN needs them.
______
Dennis
c


And it's.pretty obvious that war on a huge scale is coming but probably 20+years from where Through Fiery Trials ended.
Mahris and lesser extent Zhyou-Zwo are playing a long game, building up.their tech/infrastructure to build a Charis-threatening military, it's even mentioned specifically ala the German "riskflotte".

Also that doesn't include the potential for unexpected woes
I wouldn't put it past RFC to bit us with a Chihiro AI or some such because not only was Chihiro a megalomaniac mass murderer, he had HAMILCAR.
Plus, remember the prologue to TFT?
This story arc is not going to be a cakewalk.

If you want peace, prepare for war.
If you want to survive...make damn sure you can cover most risks.

Again it's shaping up to a WW2-like scenario.
If the Inner Circle do not prepare to.defend their far flung Empire, they risk having it destroyed in detail.
Britain and America were caught with their pants down, bent over and....so, avoiding that complacency is a good idea :p
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Re: Glass reinforced.plastic?
Post by SilverbladeTE   » Wed Feb 06, 2019 4:39 pm

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Theemile wrote:
SilverbladeTE wrote:
Also...glues.
Plywood was around centuries before the petro chemical industry began.
However, with that industry etc you could make huge volumes of *marine* plywood and other forms.

So, torpedo boats to aircraft can be made in numbers in years to come, in Charis ;)

GRP just has some extremely good advantages for some applications but will take time to mature as an industry even with the Inner Circle's help


Who needs fiberglass - there are "natural" fibers in the Safehold verse (Iron thisle) with strength qualities similiar to standard E-Glass fiberglass. All you need is a good resin, a form and something akin to gelcoat to make smooth surfaces and you can make Fiber-Thread boats.


True, but glass fibre is immune to rot, most chemical reactions, heat during curing process and effects of sunlight ;)
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Re: Glass reinforced.plastic?
Post by DMcCunney   » Thu Feb 07, 2019 10:21 am

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Posts: 392
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SilverbladeTE wrote:
DMcCunney wrote:Tell me why the Charis military needs any of this? What is the threat environment? Who might Charis have to fight that would require any of this stuff?
And it's.pretty obvious that war on a huge scale is coming but probably 20+years from where Through Fiery Trials ended.
Possible, but I doubt it.
Mahris and lesser extent Zhyou-Zwo are playing a long game, building up.their tech/infrastructure to build a Charis-threatening military, it's even mentioned specifically ala the German "riskflotte".
Mahrys may be trying to play a long game.

Zhyou Zhwo isn't. His efforts are a clever ploy by Grand Duke North Wind Rising to give the Emperor a shiny to play with and keep him out of mischief and prevent him from doing anything else stupid. North Wind Rising stated he didn't think it would work all that long.

But both Desnair and Harchong face the same underlying problem - doing effective industrialization Charis style requires the underlying social and cultural changes they are trying so hard to resist. The very process of industrialization will undermine the social order they want to preserve.

I expect both to be very different places twenty years down the road, with the differences things that will make warfare less likely.
Also that doesn't include the potential for unexpected woes
I wouldn't put it past RFC to bit us with a Chihiro AI or some such because not only was Chihiro a megalomaniac mass murderer, he had HAMILCAR.
And I have wondered elsewhere when we might see it again. The Dawn Star disappeared from Safehold's sky after the War Against the Fallen. It went somewhere, and presumably still exists.
Plus, remember the prologue to TFT?
This story arc is not going to be a cakewalk.
Never thought it would be.
If you want peace, prepare for war.
If you want to survive...make damn sure you can cover most risks.

Again it's shaping up to a WW2-like scenario.
If the Inner Circle do not prepare to.defend their far flung Empire, they risk having it destroyed in detail.
Britain and America were caught with their pants down, bent over and....so, avoiding that complacency is a good idea :p
It's risky to try to draw too many parallels from Earth history here. The threat environment is very different.

And the IC has both knowledge of Earth history and the monitoring capability to keep track of potential threats. Neither Desnair nor Harchong will develop anything that can present a serious threat to Charis without the Empire having plenty of time to develop a counter.

The threats I worry about are things Charisian military capability isn't a good counter for. The ongoing anarchy in Harchong as various warlords fight it out to be the big pics at the trough is one such. The economic and political meltdown in Siddarmark is another. Millions have already died in those places. It's possible millions more will.

There are definite limits to what the ICN and ICA can do about that.
______
Dennis
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