Topic Actions

Topic Search

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot], wingfield and 1 guest

Real life "St Klymahn's Rifle" ?

This fascinating series is a combination of historical seafaring, swashbuckling adventure, and high technological science-fiction. Join us in a discussion!
Real life "St Klymahn's Rifle" ?
Post by SilverbladeTE   » Wed Jan 30, 2019 6:03 pm

SilverbladeTE
Lieutenant Commander

Posts: 137
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:14 am

Just wondering if RFC or anyone had actually heard of or maybe asked someone to build a modified Ferguson Rifle, the St Klymahn's, as in the novels? :)


Lot of black powder, firearm, crafter, re-enactor fans might be interested in such?

From the sound of it, it shouldn't be that hard to build considering modern day machining for the threads.

Kind of imagined the "cut away" breech plug and receiver would look like the cartridge ramp on a Martini-Henry


And who's brain child is it: RFC's?
Cause it's a bloody awesome way around the breech loading problems for percussion weapons and fixes the problems of the Ferguson Rifle!
~~~~~~~~~~

Departure from gun as used in novels:

With such a system you'd really want to use something other than a Civil War era "cartridge", which is just convenient powder/bullet/wad combination

You'd want instead an actual "cartridge" made of waxed, nitre impregnated paper and bullet, you can push in as one single piece. I think such is possible, but will leave it to experts

All depends on how the cartridge ramp can work with feeding
Either as said like Martini-Henry....which might be too curved for a fragile(ish) paper cartridge, danger of kinking the waxed paper cartridge
Or
You could maybe build the receiver coming down at greater angle so cartridge feed is almost straight in, bit like Remington Rollingblock?

That could be an easy change for Harchong etc to improve their weapons without much change?
Maybe rebore barrel to make a "cartridge" pocket just as with metallic cartridge?
Top
Re: Real life "St Klymahn's Rifle" ?
Post by Weird Harold   » Wed Jan 30, 2019 8:43 pm

Weird Harold
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 4426
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2014 9:25 pm
Location: "Lost Wages", NV

SilverbladeTE wrote:Just wondering if RFC or anyone had actually heard of or maybe asked someone to build a modified Ferguson Rifle, the St Klymahn's, as in the novels? :)


Search Youtube for "Forgotten Weapons" and "capandball"

Ian McCullom of Forgotten Weapons has done several videos about one-off black powder breech-loaders for sale at a couple of auction houses; He also has several videos on civil war era conversions to both paper and metal cartridges.

Capandball is the channel of a Hungarian (world?) black-powder champion. He has several videos on how various paper cartridges were constructed and used. He also features many of Pedersoli reproductions of historic firearms.

Both channels are prolific posters so I can't find any specific videos off-hand, but I do recall both have featured more than one design for converted muzzle loaders using paper cartridges.

Both have videos on the original Sharps Rifle that used paper cartridges.
.
.
.
Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just find the right questions.)
Top
Re: Real life "St Klymahn's Rifle" ?
Post by SilverbladeTE   » Wed Jan 30, 2019 10:43 pm

SilverbladeTE
Lieutenant Commander

Posts: 137
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:14 am

Weird Harold wrote:
Search Youtube for "Forgotten Weapons" and "capandball"

Ian McCullom of Forgotten Weapons has done several videos about one-off black powder breech-loaders for sale at a couple of auction houses; He also has several videos on civil war era conversions to both paper and metal cartridges.

Capandball is the channel of a Hungarian (world?) black-powder champion. He has several videos on how various paper cartridges were constructed and used. He also features many of Pedersoli reproductions of historic firearms.

Both channels are prolific posters so I can't find any specific videos off-hand, but I do recall both have featured more than one design for converted muzzle loaders using paper cartridges.

Both have videos on the original Sharps Rifle that used paper cartridges.



I've saw a few of both Ian and "capandball" videos, very good stuff! :)


Am working, very slowly on a (free) althistory story so been researching, came up with a different idea for breech loader myself (least it sounds plausible so that'll do. Lol)
But loved their videos, such as Remington 1858 Pistol (a fave) and Bren Gun (family fave lol)

But I think the St Klymahn is a great idea for turning into a real, working firearm, as there's lot of market and sheer fun to be had me thinks, so maybe RFC should contact Pedersoli or the like, perhaps?
And be nice to see it on video, as I *love* watching simple, smart innovations come to.life and work :)

If I'm up to it, during Summer (health is better then) may make a 3D animation of how the St Kylmahn might look and operate

Odd to think that but for a small change in history, if Ferguson had imagined that change, if the UK had precise measurement standards and the idiot guilds hadn't held manufacturing back....
Well, George Washington may well have had a much harder time of it!
Though, being a "rebellious Scot" I'd rather they "super rifles" would be in the Colonials' hands, muhaha :mrgreen:
~~~~~~
Doh, meant "chamber" not "pocket", my brain is turning to mush :p
Top
Re: Real life "St Klymahn's Rifle" ?
Post by Weird Harold   » Thu Jan 31, 2019 2:25 am

Weird Harold
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 4426
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2014 9:25 pm
Location: "Lost Wages", NV

SilverbladeTE wrote:I've saw a few of both Ian and "capandball" videos, very good stuff! :)


But I think the St Klymahn is a great idea for turning into a real, working firearm, as there's lot of market and sheer fun to be had me thinks, so maybe RFC should contact Pedersoli or the like, perhaps?

And be nice to see it on video, as I *love* watching simple, smart innovations come to.life and work :)


I don't know that a RL St Klymahn would be financially viable. As much as we love RFC, he doesn't have enough fans that are "gun nuts" to support even a small production run.

I don't recall the exact details of the St Klyman conversion, but I think the Austrian Werndl and Wanzl actions are eminently suitable for at least partial inspiration for the design, even though both are metallic cartridge rifles. (the Wanzl being an actual conversion from a muzzle loader.)

Conversion from paper cartridges to metallic cartridges was dead simple for rifles like the Sharps "Buffalo Rifle" and both Austrian guns could have followed that path with simpler actions.
.
.
.
Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just find the right questions.)
Top
Re: Real life "St Klymahn's Rifle" ?
Post by Theemile   » Thu Jan 31, 2019 9:09 am

Theemile
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 3341
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2010 4:50 pm
Location: All over the Place - Now Serving Windsor CT.

SilverbladeTE wrote:<snip>

Odd to think that but for a small change in history, if Ferguson had imagined that change, if the UK had precise measurement standards and the idiot guilds hadn't held manufacturing back....
Well, George Washington may well have had a much harder time of it!
Though, being a "rebellious Scot" I'd rather they "super rifles" would be in the Colonials' hands, muhaha :mrgreen:
~~~~~~
Doh, meant "chamber" not "pocket", my brain is turning to mush :p



Actually, Ferguson claims to have had Washington in his sights at 100-150 yards during one battle and declined to take a shot at him. If he had, even the few Fergusons completed would have totally changed the world.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
Top
Re: Real life "St Klymahn's Rifle" ?
Post by lyonheart   » Tue Feb 05, 2019 8:03 pm

lyonheart
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 4832
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2009 10:27 pm

Hi TheEmile,

Then there was Jerry Pournelle's 1980's SF magazine column account (collected in A Step Further Out IIRC) that Ferguson tried to sell his rifle to the Continental Congress but because they didn't have any cash, [ie silver or gold] the deal fell through.
He then wondered whether one of Ben Franklin's diving bells to salvage Spanish treasure galleons could have gotten lucky and changed the course of the war, a demonstration of alternate history, though he didn't label it such, but where is it when you need it. ;)

Theemile wrote:
SilverbladeTE wrote:<snip>

Odd to think that but for a small change in history, if Ferguson had imagined that change, if the UK had precise measurement standards and the idiot guilds hadn't held manufacturing back....
Well, George Washington may well have had a much harder time of it!
Though, being a "rebellious Scot" I'd rather they "super rifles" would be in the Colonials' hands, muhaha :mrgreen:
~~~~~~
Doh, meant "chamber" not "pocket", my brain is turning to mush :p



Actually, Ferguson claims to have had Washington in his sights at 100-150 yards during one battle and declined to take a shot at him. If he had, even the few Fergusons completed would have totally changed the world.
Any snippet or post from RFC is good if not great!
Top
Re: Real life "St Klymahn's Rifle" ?
Post by jtg452   » Sat Feb 09, 2019 1:20 pm

jtg452
Captain (Junior Grade)

Posts: 354
Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2011 2:46 pm

SilverbladeTE wrote:Just wondering if RFC or anyone had actually heard of or maybe asked someone to build a modified Ferguson Rifle, the St Klymahn's, as in the novels? :)


Lot of black powder, firearm, crafter, re-enactor fans might be interested in such?

From the sound of it, it shouldn't be that hard to build considering modern day machining for the threads.

Kind of imagined the "cut away" breech plug and receiver would look like the cartridge ramp on a Martini-Henry


And who's brain child is it: RFC's?
Cause it's a bloody awesome way around the breech loading problems for percussion weapons and fixes the problems of the Ferguson Rifle!
~~~~~~~~~~

Departure from gun as used in novels:

With such a system you'd really want to use something other than a Civil War era "cartridge", which is just convenient powder/bullet/wad combination

You'd want instead an actual "cartridge" made of waxed, nitre impregnated paper and bullet, you can push in as one single piece. I think such is possible, but will leave it to experts

All depends on how the cartridge ramp can work with feeding
Either as said like Martini-Henry....which might be too curved for a fragile(ish) paper cartridge, danger of kinking the waxed paper cartridge
Or
You could maybe build the receiver coming down at greater angle so cartridge feed is almost straight in, bit like Remington Rollingblock?

That could be an easy change for Harchong etc to improve their weapons without much change?
Maybe rebore barrel to make a "cartridge" pocket just as with metallic cartridge?



RFC is a firearms enthusiast (which sounds much better than 'gun nut' since it lacks all of the negative connotations), too.

When the St Klymahn was introduced, he mentioned that he'd actually fired a replica Ferguson. Ferguson met his end at King's Mountain- which is up in RFC's general neck of the woods.

There already ARE Ferguson replicas out there. They are fairly rare- and expensive- but they are out there. It's too fiddly of a design for mass production on the replica market and really doesn't have a big enough market to draw the attentions of any of the Italian firms that specialize in replica firearms. You are going to have to dive into historic reenactments and historically accurate replica firearms to locate one that's for sale or a builder willing to make one.

Of course, when you get that deep, you will find that there's someone out there somewhere that will build pretty much any of the odd or esoteric dead end designs. All it takes is time and money- and lots of both.

Personally, I'm just one lotto win away from a Puckle Gun and a Nock Volley Gun. Maybe a set of Egg duelers, too. I like Egg's stock designs better than Manton.

A full cartridge conversion of a Ferguson would be problematical.

First, how do you extract and/or eject the empty?

Extractors pull the spent cartridge at least partially out of the chamber. Ejectors send it clear of the gun completely. Modern self loading arms use both- a claw to pull it clear and some sort of rod or stop on one side of the action that flip the empty out the port. Single shot or double barrel designs usually have one part that is used in either role.

Attaching an extractor to the breech face, as is often done, isn't going to work. The motion isn't right A shotgun style extractor or ejector- most likely on the bottom side of the barrel that activates as the top of the breech plug clears the bottom of the chamber mouth- would probably be the way to go.

The breechplug would have to be redesigned not only to provide the clearance needed to load a complete cartridge but you would have to include a firing pin and some sort of transfer system to translate the sidehammer's fall into the firing pin striking the primer.

That's a whole lot going on in a very small piece AND it still has to seal the rear of the chamber- while being sturdy enough to withstanding the pressures of firing as the breech face- AND it MUST align correctly- within some pretty tight tolerances- every time to insure reliable function. If anything, the interrupted linkages of the transfer system means that it must rotate every time in even a smaller window of tolerances than the original flint lock version.

A conversion to percussion lock while using paper cartridges wouldn't be as bad.

A little milling on the top of the breechplug to form a feed ramp and a change of locks should do the trick. Without one to examine, I don't know if it could be a full fledged ramp like the Roller you mentioned or something more spoon shaped like the ladle or feed ramp of the King's Patent loading gate of the Winchester lever action rifles.

There's already a chamber of sorts cut into the breech end of the chamber. After all, there has to be some way to keep the ball from just rolling out the muzzle. Since it's a rifle, the chamber is gong to be smooth bore and slightly over sized. That chamber can be recut at need if the original bore diameter is kept or the barrel can be sleeved to a reduced bore diameter with the new chamber integral to the sleeve.
Top
Re: Real life "St Klymahn's Rifle" ?
Post by SilverbladeTE   » Sat Feb 09, 2019 2:20 pm

SilverbladeTE
Lieutenant Commander

Posts: 137
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:14 am

PAPER cartridge! As noted.... ;)
I do know the difference and as person above noted, not the typical "military percussion cartridge" of U.S. Civil War etc :)
Waxed, nitrated cartridge and lubed bullet.
As noted such do have issues with kinking/bending when fed (or carried in anything but reinforced case)

Never held a Ferguson, but watched videos and studied drawings etc.
Very clever concept for its era!
Yes I know the actual Ferguson rifle was...finicky to load.
RFC's change, cutting a ramp out of the screw plug and "receiver" behind it to allow easy "chute" is simplistic elegance.
Yeah, "receiver"...bad terminology perhaps but hey, close enough best my clunky brain can think of at moment :D



Am a "gun enthusiast", too, in my own low budget, land-challenged kind of way, but alas who's too weak/sick (literally) to hold a water pistol steady nowadays :(
Personally I find the Remington 1858 Pistol and some other firearms amazing blend of ingenuity, mechanics and practical art :)

"Recreational" firearm use in my neck of the woods back in the day, was either airguns...or you were a poacher.

If I typo a lot or have problems remembering words...I have an excuse. Typing hurts like hell, never mind anything else. So it's all been theoretical for many years, thank God for the Internet to keep interests going.
Top
Re: Real life "St Klymahn's Rifle" ?
Post by Brigade XO   » Sat Feb 09, 2019 4:31 pm

Brigade XO
Admiral

Posts: 2229
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 11:31 am
Location: KY

There are people who can produce a Ferguson Rifle. You can order them. Yes, some reenactors have them. Finding somebody who would be willing to set up the manuacturing of the (and cover the costs of a production prototype if needed - vs buying one of the recently made ones to use as the prototype that the manufacturer would copy) is probably the largest concern.
At present time, a Ferguson falls under the "reproduction antique firearm" verbiage and, last time anybody mentioned it to me, wasn't something AFT was covering. State laws.....sigh....that's a whole different question depending on the state.
It's a flintlock breachloader.
Top
Re: Real life "St Klymahn's Rifle" ?
Post by SilverbladeTE   » Sat Feb 09, 2019 6:43 pm

SilverbladeTE
Lieutenant Commander

Posts: 137
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:14 am

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cOrYQDsX6aU

Paper cartridge, breech loader :)
Top

Return to Safehold