**major spoilers** Speculation about a certain document...

DMcCunney wrote:

Krenn wrote:I've always assumed that Schueler's children were born on earth, and that he may have done something mildly unethical to get them added to the list of approved colonists.

It's made clear in TextEv that Cryo is a bad idea for children, and that the colonists were basically adults of various ages.

Or that he just got really lucky, and his childen won slots in a lottery or something.

See above about kids and cryo.

It could be something as simple as Schueler having been divorced or widowed, and the kids raised under their mother's name, so nobody thought to cross-check for biological fathers among the command staff when approving the kids for settlement. And Schueler presumably then kept silent about the conflict of interest when he found out.

I suppose it's possible, but I think Schueler actually impregnated a colonist female.

I'm mostly wondering if he were the only Archangel that might have done so.

And I don't assume all colonists were mated couples, so the possibility of unattached females an Archangel might be attracted to exists.

Though we also have the possibility the woman who had Schueler's kid was married and having an affair, and the kid produced would be assumed to be fathered by her husband. That would avoid questions about the paternity Schueler wouldn't want to answer. He might not have intended to make her pregnant in the first place, and his subsequent interactions with the Wyllsyn family might have guilt as a motivation.
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Dennis

We're talking about a federation where normal human lifespan was in the 300-year range. And anyone with the experience and seniority to be a high-level government official for a founding colony would have been at least 40-50 years old, even by our current standards.

Schueler could easily have been old enough at the time of Operation Ark to have several children who were Nimue's age, or even older.

Truncated Post

PeterZ wrote:
Both scenarios lead to important whys. Yet only if Schueler truly did send the visitation do those why questions get permanently directed back upon the CoGA. If this Androcles, the Returners will force the re-assertion of the archangels and their authority.

Actually, it doesn't matter whether it's the real Schueler or Operation Androcles. The Returners will force the re-assertion of the archangels and their authority in either case if they want to force people back into Langhorne/Chihiro's plan. They'll simply continue to lie to re-assert their authority.

So in fact there is not a lot of downside if this is Operation Androcles. It does at least start a process of questioning previously inviolate beliefs. So at least if the Returners do lie, at least one group will question the lie.

And no matter which way it goes, it's liable to be bloody, as in literal rivers of blood.


Full post follows:

runsforcelery wrote:

Krenn wrote:
As far as I know, most of Safehold doesn't know that Chihiro ghost-wrote most of the writ.

Which gets us to the speculation part: Will Schueler's Testimony TELL people that Chihiro ghost-wrote most of the document?

You can think of the Book of Chihiro as functionally equivalent to the Gospel of Luke. It is the book which records the Archangel-eye view of the great deeds of the Archangels and pf the War Against the Fallen. The other books are all "how-to" books and instruction on how to live a "godly" life because that was all that was needed in a world which had not fallen, while all the Archangels were still alive and available for individual instruction and/or clarification. When all of them were murdered by the Great Traitor, poor Chihiro ( )was left to write the book which puts everything into context and provides instruction for how to live in a fallen world. while the Book of Schueler provides the "teeth" that the Proscriptions didn't really need while Langhorne was still around or one of the junior angels could drop in and say "Getting a bit too close to Proscribed actions, there, friend." Langhorne always stated that the Church had been created and ordained to carry on his great mission, but he didn't expect to get vaporized by a nuke long before he was ready to go totally hands-off, so he'd neverf written any "after my departure" instructions.

Chihiro and Scheueler took care of that for him.

See what a great job they did?

I think most of the timing in this is implied from the moment that Nimue first reflects that the original Writ included neither Scheueler nor Chirhiro.

PeterZ wrote:
So, if Shan-wei never fell and Chihiro lied, his instructions on living in a fallen world don't apply. Yet, the instruction on living in an unfallen world don't apply either, because his lies have created a fallen world where the CoGA is instrumental in humanity's fall and continued downward spiral. It follows that any entity that resisted the unreformed CoGA is trying to stop that downward spiral.

If this is Operation Androcles when whatever returns does return, there will be unreconcilably deep divide on Safehold. Those archangels can prove this was not Schueler and Shan-Wei is up to her tricks corrupting humanity's goodness into evil. The IC's only hope is that the Returners won't push humanity into that. Very risky move.

If this is truly Schueler, then his words do support discarding at least the Books of Schueler and Chihiro as well as the inerrancy of the Writ. No Punishment. We still have the Proscriptions of Jwo-Jeng because his book was written for an fallen world. The problem is that the world is now fallen and Langehorn has shown his limitation in not being prepared for it. Either that or those instructions of his already account for a world that may fall. Still, the question of why comes into play. Not just why Chihiro did as he did, but why does a Langehorn unprepared for catastrophic change require the rules he does?

Both scenarios lead to important whys. Yet only if Schueler truly did send the visitation do those why questions get permanently directed back upon the CoGA. If this Androcles, the Returners will force the re-assertion of the archangels and their authority.

Truncated Post

PeterZ wrote:
Both scenarios lead to important whys. Yet only if Schueler truly did send the visitation do those why questions get permanently directed back upon the CoGA. If this Androcles, the Returners will force the re-assertion of the archangels and their authority.

dobriennm wrote:
Actually, it doesn't matter whether it's the real Schueler or Operation Androcles. The Returners will force the re-assertion of the archangels and their authority in either case if they want to force people back into Langhorne/Chihiro's plan. They'll simply continue to lie to re-assert their authority.

So in fact there is not a lot of downside if this is Operation Androcles. It does at least start a process of questioning previously inviolate beliefs. So at least if the Returners do lie, at least one group will question the lie.

And no matter which way it goes, it's liable to be bloody, as in literal rivers of blood.

There is a key difference. Assuming that the truth will be revealed about the visitation, then;

Schueler is an archangel speaking against Chihiro. If this was his visitation, he is using the core CoGA theology against itself. An actual archangel denying the veracity and inerrancy of the entire Writ.

or

If this was Operation Androcles, this is simply another lie from Shan-wei. She did set up St. Zherneau and Nimue's PICA, didn't she? That means everything Clyntahn had been saying is true. the Jihad was justified as a war against Shan-wei.

Whatever the IC does has to be able to sustain the stark light of truth without assuming the coGA will ever be held to the same standard. More than anything this belief keeps me from believing the IC would take the risk of crafting a fraudulent visitation. Also, the Khody subplot suggests that the visitation was part of Schueler's overall plan to correct Chihiro's excesses.

PeterZ wrote:There is a key difference. Assuming that the truth will be revealed about the visitation, then;

Schueler is an archangel speaking against Chihiro. If this was his visitation, he is using the core CoGA theology against itself. An actual archangel denying the veracity and inerrancy of the entire Writ.

or

If this was Operation Androcles, this is simply another lie from Shan-wei. She did set up St. Zherneau and Nimue's PICA, didn't she? That means everything Clyntahn had been saying is true. the Jihad was justified as a war against Shan-wei.

Whatever the IC does has to be able to sustain the stark light of truth without assuming the coGA will ever be held to the same standard. More than anything this belief keeps me from believing the IC would take the risk of crafting a fraudulent visitation. Also, the Khody subplot suggests that the visitation was part of Schueler's overall plan to correct Chihiro's excesses.

I disagree here in the sense that if (as I mentioned a few times I believe) the "visitation" is Operation Androcles and the testimony will tell part of the truth about Gbaba, the Federation and the true purpose of Safehold (possibly in metaphorical terms and coached in pro CoGa terms, just that the Church itself was misled by Chihiro so to speak) and revealing (or at least hinting) that the Proscriptions were supposed to be temporary (for the reasons above, Gbaba etc), it won't matter when the {true} Archangels return since as it is repeated so many times in the series, "you cannot unsay things" and there is all the proof one wants about the above that can be presented when Safehold gets used with the truth

evilauthor wrote:

DMcCunney wrote:Schueler was likely on thin ice by impregnating a colonist female.

But given that he did, was he the only one? You have to wonder what other Archangels left bastards scattered around.)

If I had to guess? Probably all of them.

Well, Commodore Pei's downloads had genetic profiles of the command crew, which is how they proved Paityr was descended from Schueler.

The problem with tracing the others is insufficient genetic scans of current Safeholdians to see who might have Archangel DNA in their mix. (Though I can see one-upmanship about who was a descendant of what Archangel if the idea ever got revealed to Safeholdians in general. )

Or at least all the male ones anyway. It's kinda hard for the females to hide a pregnancy after all, but not impossible given Federation medical tech (just move the fetus to an artificial womb).

Save that the females would have access to Federation tech to insure they didn't get pregnant like that, and would be unlikely to let it happen. And there are also existing relationships among the command crew. Shan Wei and Kau Yung were husband and wife. It's not stated, but I got the impression Langhorne and Bedard were an item, too.

But yes, it would be easier for male Archangels, simply because being an Archangel gave them a leg up in getting laid by a colonist female. Tech doubtless existed to prevent them from impregnating a women unless doing so deliberately, but shit happens...
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Dennis

DMcCunney wrote:

Krenn wrote: quote="DMcCunney" (And thinking about it, we learned a while back that Paityr was descended for Schueler, and Schuerer's DNA is now scattered throughout a good part of Siddarmark.

It's not clear what sort of regulations about intimate relations between command crew and colonists existed, though I'd be surprised if there weren't some. Schueler was likely on thin ice by impregnating a colonist female.

But given that he did, was he the only one? You have to wonder what other Archangels left bastards scattered around.)

I've always assumed that Schueler's children were born on earth, and that he may have done something mildly unethical to get them added to the list of approved colonists. /quote It's made clear in TextEv that Cryo is a bad idea for children, and that the colonists were basically adults of various ages.

Or that he just got really lucky, and his childen won slots in a lottery or something.

See above about kids and cryo.

It could be something as simple as Schueler having been divorced or widowed, and the kids raised under their mother's name, so nobody thought to cross-check for biological fathers among the command staff when approving the kids for settlement. And Schueler presumably then kept silent about the conflict of interest when he found out.

I suppose it's possible, but I think Schueler actually impregnated a colonist female.

I'm mostly wondering if he were the only Archangel that might have done so.

And I don't assume all colonists were mated couples, so the possibility of unattached females an Archangel might be attracted to exists.

Though we also have the possibility the woman who had Schueler's kid was married and having an affair, and the kid produced would be assumed to be fathered by her husband. That would avoid questions about the paternity Schueler wouldn't want to answer. He might not have intended to make her pregnant in the first place, and his subsequent interactions with the Wyllsyn family might have guilt as a motivation.
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Dennis

1) Why couldn't Schueler (and all the other archangels) be living under assumed names and have children?
2) Why couldn't they be married to other members of the command crew, have children who were then treated to the same memory modification as the rest of the colonists?
3) Why couldn't a reward for going on the mission be that your children get to go as well?

The other issue is of course that in the TF, having children was contra indicated but that inhibition was removed on arrival at Safehold. It would seem more than probable that in that situation all, or at least most, of the members of the command crew including naturally, indeed maybe especially, the female members would want to reproduce. Even though they had lengthened lives they were still mortal, and it is a prime imperative. Whether they mated with other "angels and archangels" or with mere mortals the challenge in a moral world where support of children was a requirement is how that support would be ensured for command crew parents. They would probably couldn't just move into a village and settle down - and of course the kids have to have that good old fashioned religion, they can't be made aware of high tech. That sort of implies an "adopt out" solution - maybe presenting a couple with a baby as a "gift from God (or Langhorne)" possibly as some sort of prize for Godliness?

Hmmmm - maybe Clyntahn was a descendant of Chihiro?

Randomiser wrote:

runsforcelery wrote:
You can think of the Book of Chihiro as functionally equivalent to the Gospel of Luke. It is the book which records the Archangel-eye view of the great deeds of the Archangels and pf the War Against the Fallen.

The Gospel of Luke? Why specifically? Sounds rather more like Luke volume 2 - The Acts of the Apostles, functionally speaking.

You are correct. I was very tired when I wrote that. I shall edit!

Good point.

Paityr's family could be descended from a child of Schueler and another member of the command crew.

Said child was given to a colonialist family to raise as their own. This may have been common practice for the command crew and thus there could be plenty of families on Safehold who have command crew ancestors.

The Wylsynn family may be unusual in that they know about their ancestry.

On the other hand, it's possible that some of the command staff parents may have "kept" in touch with their children and/or kept an eye on their children.

On the gripping hand, I can't help but wonder if other families knew of their ancestry and caused problems with led to the Church's Official Statement that "nobody on Safehold was descended from the Angels/Archangels".

The Wylsynn family, thanks to Schueler's instructions, never mentioned to outsiders about their ancestry.

Spoz wrote:The other issue is of course that in the TF, having children was contra indicated but that inhibition was removed on arrival at Safehold. It would seem more than probable that in that situation all, or at least most, of the members of the command crew including naturally, indeed maybe especially, the female members would want to reproduce. Even though they had lengthened lives they were still mortal, and it is a prime imperative. Whether they mated with other "angels and archangels" or with mere mortals the challenge in a moral world where support of children was a requirement is how that support would be ensured for command crew parents. They would probably couldn't just move into a village and settle down - and of course the kids have to have that good old fashioned religion, they can't be made aware of high tech. That sort of implies an "adopt out" solution - maybe presenting a couple with a baby as a "gift from God (or Langhorne)" possibly as some sort of prize for Godliness?

Hmmmm - maybe Clyntahn was a descendant of Chihiro?

Unlikely to be Schueler after 1000 - fallen years in cryo, it sounds like he looked to healthy. Schueler's downloaded personality in a VR, projected into the cathedral, possible. With a computer programmed to not go AI then go crazy monitoring the existing Temple and orbital sensors to give him a quick history, which would undoubtedly increase in frequency and resolution as it got closer to show time he could easily have seen the reader's digest form of the Clyntahn debacle. But why a flying visit to drop off the book and say Chirio lied? A copy of is memoirs to show how he'd been wronged? A book to change the direction of Safehold? If so, what new direction that he would devote that much time and effort to, and wait 1000 years to start the process?

No, I still lean in the direction of an IC visitation. But you can't invalidate everything the CoGA has been preaching since Creation, along with the Writ, The Testimonies and Commentaries and all prior text evidence in one fell swoop. What I imagine is the book written in sections, with each section encrypted, or encoded, or otherwise requiring something more to be able to read and understand it. Light Khody's diary, the spanish portion of his diary, the original Testimonies before the last Adam and Eve had died, We the People and other quotes you would never hear on Safehold, something involving the scientific method or electricity. And every few years an original copy of the Testimonies shows up in a locked up for a hundred years storeroom in St. Alyk's Abbey, first a copy of just the english portions of Khody's journal, then later if things are going well the original, etc.

This has the advantage that all the hidden material was there from the very beginning, but layers of truth can be revealed, and digested over a longer period of time. And if the first portions, like the broadsheets during the Jihad always give the truth, and usually a verifiable truth, then it will make later sections which were known to be there, unchanged from the moment Schueler delivered the book, but were only understood much later and build on the earlier sections. And the fact that Schueler himself delivered a book which obviously required such heretical information sources and thus gives them his support would allow the CoGA doctrine to be more and more deeply eroded. And the slower evolution of the more controversial parts would decrease the likelihood of more and larger rivers of blood. And still finish before any other 'Archangels' show up 80 yeas later only to find that by now 'the Emperor has no clothes'!