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**major spoilers** Speculation about a certain document...

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**major spoilers** Speculation about a certain document...
Post by Krenn   » Wed Jan 16, 2019 7:18 pm

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Obviously, this post will contain MAJOR spoilers about the ending scene of TFT. You have been warned.....


So, in the last scene of TFT, a certain document has been revealed to the Schulerites, in Schueler's Tomb, but the novel ends on a cliffhanger: the book itself HAS NOT YET BEEN OPENED OR READ, and thus we have virtually no information about it's contents.

What we know about it:

Ahrnahld Samsyn swallowed hard as he saw the mighty volume resting upon the rail. Saw the flickering, flowing glow of holy brilliance dancing through its gems, saw the precious metals of its cover, and knew—knew—that its pages were of that same imperishable metal, in paper-thin sheets etched with a finer script than any mortal hand could produce.



And this is how the document's deliverer chose to describe it:

“This is my Testimony,” the Archangel said. “The Testimony of Schueler, and I leave it with you so that all who see it may know I truly appeared before you, that this is truly my word. And that word, my children,” he said while Samsyn trembled before him, “is that it was not Shan-wei who Fell, but Chihiro who lied.”

A chorus of gasps washed through the cathedral, and the Archangel looked down upon the mall.

“Take that word forth with you, my children, for it is time the truth was known. Time the lies were set aside. Time for you to walk once more into the light of the purpose which brought you here.
“I know it’s frightening. I know the burden I’ve laid upon you will be heavy. But it is time, and I charge you all as my witnesses and my messengers to take that truth and proclaim it to all the Faithful.”


Now, on several other threads, speculation is rife about who the real author, editor, and deliverer of this document might be... the two obvious candidates being either the Inner Circle or Schueler. I could see good arguments in any direction, and don't yet have a strong opinion on the matter.

However.... I think we have to assume that when someone DOES open this document and read it, that it will contain actual words, in a well-written format, suitable for general publication. And if this tome is "mighty", then it probably contains several hundred pages.

I would be interested to see peoples speculation.... what might logically BE in the alleged 'Lost Testimony of Schueler' ? Where would that information have come from? how much of it could presumably be independently verified? What other documents and histories would it likely contradict, or NOT contradict, or merely subtly call into question? What idiom would it be presented in? And, finally, who would the presumed actual author/editor/compiler of this document be, and what was their presumptive goal in having this document 'revealed'?
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Re: **major spoilers** Speculation about a certain document
Post by PeterZ   » Wed Jan 16, 2019 7:32 pm

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I believe this was Schueler's work, not the IC. This book did two things primarily; it described the goals of the original colonial charter and it corrects the history of the War Against the Fallen.

If the Testament of Schueler did that, it would create honest dialogue regarding the Proscriptions and the Punishment. Given that as a baseline, the IC can establish places where Terran tech can ba deployed to take out the OBS.

Assuming that Schueler sent his visitation because Chihiro was sending his in 80 years, the IC has its work cut out for it. If Schueler has no answer for the OBS, the IC has to create one before Safehold can truly progress.
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Re: **major spoilers** Speculation about a certain document
Post by Krenn   » Wed Jan 16, 2019 8:26 pm

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PeterZ wrote:I believe this was Schueler's work, not the IC. This book did two things primarily; it described the goals of the original colonial charter and it corrects the history of the War Against the Fallen.

If the Testament of Schueler did that, it would create honest dialogue regarding the Proscriptions and the Punishment. Given that as a baseline, the IC can establish places where Terran tech can ba deployed to take out the OBS.

Assuming that Schueler sent his visitation because Chihiro was sending his in 80 years, the IC has its work cut out for it. If Schueler has no answer for the OBS, the IC has to create one before Safehold can truly progress.


But if the document does that... how would it be written? Would he still keep up the pretense that the senior council members were "Archangels," working on behalf of "God" ? Would it be written in basically the same style Chihiro used when he ghost-wrote every else's books?

So could it be like something like this...:

"The Lost Testimony of Schueler: Chapter 1: And thus spake God unto the ArchAngels, saying, 'This shall be your divinely mandated charter, for creating the place of Safehold. You shall have a council of thirteen members, with a supermajority required for any major changes..."

Chapter 2: The story of how Archangel Shan-Wei was removed from the council in protest, but permitted to establish her own island colony, where she did rebel against the teaching of Langhorne, and reject the Holy Writ, save only for the Divine mandate against making any use of the power of Electricity...

Chapter 3: How Archangel Chihiro came to lie, and falsely accused Shan-Wei of having secretly violated the prohibition against Divine Electricity, and did further falsely accuse Shan-Wei of formenting treason and insurrection against Archangel Langhorne in his own lands and enclaves...

Chapter 4: How Archangel Langhorne, being decieved, did call down the Rakurai upon Shan-wei....


Or is it more likely that Schueler ommitted the false references to holiness, Archangels, Divine Mandates, etc, and just remained silent on those issues? or even outright contradicted them?

and do you think that EVERYTHING in Schueler's Testimony was actually typed, in his own hand, in his own words, as a personal journal or testimony of what he personally remembered having happened? in your version, might Schueler have, say, obtained official transcripts of all the council meetings, and then included those records in his Testimony? either with or without light editing to the transcripts, to make them sound 'holier' ?
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Re: **major spoilers** Speculation about a certain document
Post by cnrd22   » Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:25 pm

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Let's see the relevant text:

“You have survived a dark time,” the Archangel continued. “Terrible, evil deeds were done in my name. Deeds any godly person must renounce as the foul perversion they were. Enough time has passed for you to recognize that truth, to grapple with it and realize that even though terrible things were done in my name, it was never with my approval.”

Samsyn signed himself with the scepter and felt those words—the words that validated his love for Schueler and the assurance that Zhaspahr Clyntahn had, indeed, perverted the Archangel’s will and intent—flood through him like the sun.

“Yet now that that those days and years have passed, the time has come for a further truth, a deeper truth, to be shared with you. For know this, this world has indeed strayed far afield from the plan for which your forefathers and your foremothers, the Adams and the Eves who left you The Testimonies, were brought forth upon it. You do live in a dark and fallen time, but—” that mighty voice softened, went darker with what could almost have been pain “—it did not fall the way you have been taught it did.”




Part 1 above clearly proves the fact that the apparition has knowledge of contemporary events and the reaction of Father Samsyn: "the assurance that Zhaspahr Clyntahn had, indeed, perverted the Archangel’s will", is as much proof that DW intended to show that as one can wish.

I strongly believe that Part 2 is a prelude to declaring that God's will in bringing humans to Safehold was to first protect them for a while under the CoGa auspices and then have the same Coga actually reveal them the truth about the Federation, Gbaba etc (maybe coached in metaphorical, biblical like terms with demons etc); see the quote below which again to my mind is as much evidence of above intent as one can get (plus sounding quite familiar as the words by which Merlin reveals the truth to Alahnah and Lywis for example have a similar tone you—both of you—are going to have to learn a secret. A secret men and women have died to keep. The most important secret in the entire world.”),
while the ending is an explanation of why the plan failed

“Yet now that that those days and years have passed, the time has come for a further truth, a deeper truth, to be shared with you. For know this, this world has indeed strayed far afield from the plan for which your forefathers and your foremothers, the Adams and the Eves who left you The Testimonies, were brought forth upon it.

As noted this has Operation Androcles written all over it and the Testimony will be precisely that, how the Federation got destroyed (maybe written in hyperbolic, Bible like terms, not necessarily in modern scientific ones with demons rather than aliens etc etc), how God sent humans to Safehold, how His Plan was that the Coga will protect them until they were safe and them reveal them the Truth and send them on their way to destroy the Gbaba (demons) and how Chichiro (and possibly other traitor Archangels) used treachery and what-not to subvert said plan and make Schueler a future big villain (with his book of Punishments which will clearly be abused in said future) to boot, while until now for whatever reason he was blocked from revealing said truth
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Re: **major spoilers** Speculation about a certain document
Post by Krenn   » Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:56 pm

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cnrd22 wrote:As noted this has Operation Androcles written all over it and the Testimony will be precisely that, how the Federation got destroyed (maybe written in hyperbolic, Bible like terms, not necessarily in modern scientific ones with demons rather than aliens etc etc), how God sent humans to Safehold, how His Plan was that the Coga will protect them until they were safe and them reveal them the Truth and send them on their way to destroy the Gbaba (demons) and how Chichiro (and possibly other traitor Archangels) used treachery and what-not to subvert said plan and make Schueler a future big villain (with his book of Punishments which will clearly be abused in said future) to boot, while until now for whatever reason he was blocked from revealing said truth


I'm trying to re-phrase what each person posts, to make sure that I understand what they seem to be proposing, in terms of what the Lost Testimony of Schueler would actually look like.

If I understand you correctly, you're thinking it will mostly take the form of a complete, honest, and understandable history, from the existence of Earth and the Terran Federation, all the way to the Rakurai that fell on Shan Wei, at a minimum? Maybe afterwards, too, through the War of the Fallen and Schueler's eventual death of old age, depending on how much risk the Inner Circle is willing to take about narrating Schueler's alleged life, without possessing reliable records with which to guide them?

And that with the Inner Circle as the true authors, the Testimony will wind up calling for something like 50% of the Writ as previously known to be outright rejected? The founding myth, the proscriptions, the punishments, the church authority and organization, the subtle brainwashing, the dislike of change, maybe even the theological reasoning behind most of the terraforming, hygiene, and dietary instructions?

That pretty much the ONLY deference the book might show the original Writ is that it might still refer to historic people as Angels, Archangels, Adams, and Eves, and it might still reference a general belief in God's hand? But even if the book still CALLS Langhorn an Archangel, everything else it says will make it pretty clear that he was just a human entrusted with a lot of power?

Still trying to confirm your proposal here, you're of the opinion that this will be written in the format of a book allegedly personally typed by Schueler, narrated by Schueler, sharing his alleged version of events at least insofar as the Inner Circle has sufficiently reliable records with which to estimate what information Schueler would have had access to?

You don't think the book will include things like alternate religious books from old earth, or lengthy encyclopedia articles, or complete transcripts from meetings that Schueler wasn't personally present at, but might have possessed copies of?
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Re: **major spoilers** Speculation about a certain document
Post by Suroth   » Wed Jan 16, 2019 11:36 pm

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I agree with what's been said above that the strong implication is that the apparition of Schueler and the testament is likely the Operation Androcles mentioned earlier. I think two things clench this. First which has been mentioned already is the way the apparition seems to know about the Inquisition's actions which would not be the case for a hologram of Schueler made in the past. A second minor detail is the fact that Schueler's apparition is said to have an extremely deep voice which is an attribute often attributed to Merlin throughout the series.

All that having been said, the novel did seem to be setting up for some sort of return. The dramatic tension was raised by constant mentions of the return throughout this novel. It seems strange that the payoff for that is as simple as 'we have another 80 years.'
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Re: **major spoilers** Speculation about a certain document
Post by PeterZ   » Thu Jan 17, 2019 12:26 am

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PeterZ wrote:I believe this was Schueler's work, not the IC. This book did two things primarily; it described the goals of the original colonial charter and it corrects the history of the War Against the Fallen.

If the Testament of Schueler did that, it would create honest dialogue regarding the Proscriptions and the Punishment. Given that as a baseline, the IC can establish places where Terran tech can ba deployed to take out the OBS.

Assuming that Schueler sent his visitation because Chihiro was sending his in 80 years, the IC has its work cut out for it. If Schueler has no answer for the OBS, the IC has to create one before Safehold can truly progress.
Krenn wrote:
But if the document does that... how would it be written? Would he still keep up the pretense that the senior council members were "Archangels," working on behalf of "God" ? Would it be written in basically the same style Chihiro used when he ghost-wrote every else's books?

So could it be like something like this...:

"The Lost Testimony of Schueler: Chapter 1: And thus spake God unto the ArchAngels, saying, 'This shall be your divinely mandated charter, for creating the place of Safehold. You shall have a council of thirteen members, with a supermajority required for any major changes..."

Chapter 2: The story of how Archangel Shan-Wei was removed from the council in protest, but permitted to establish her own island colony, where she did rebel against the teaching of Langhorne, and reject the Holy Writ, save only for the Divine mandate against making any use of the power of Electricity...

Chapter 3: How Archangel Chihiro came to lie, and falsely accused Shan-Wei of having secretly violated the prohibition against Divine Electricity, and did further falsely accuse Shan-Wei of formenting treason and insurrection against Archangel Langhorne in his own lands and enclaves...

Chapter 4: How Archangel Langhorne, being decieved, did call down the Rakurai upon Shan-wei....


Or is it more likely that Schueler ommitted the false references to holiness, Archangels, Divine Mandates, etc, and just remained silent on those issues? or even outright contradicted them?

and do you think that EVERYTHING in Schueler's Testimony was actually typed, in his own hand, in his own words, as a personal journal or testimony of what he personally remembered having happened? in your version, might Schueler have, say, obtained official transcripts of all the council meetings, and then included those records in his Testimony? either with or without light editing to the transcripts, to make them sound 'holier' ?

I think he does not go out of his way to either emphasize angelic claims or deny them. How he goes about refuting Chihiro's false assertions depends on how those assertions are made in Chihiro's book. Not sure how he will refer to the need to each back up. Will he describe the Gbaba as demonic foes, simply secular genocidal adversaries or some nebulous threat? Don't know. I do suspect he approved every word in his Testament. A computer engraved them on the battle steel pages, but Schueler narrated and edited every word.
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Re: **major spoilers** Speculation about a certain document
Post by Bluesqueak   » Thu Jan 17, 2019 3:02 am

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cnrd22 wrote:Let's see the relevant text:

“You have survived a dark time,” the Archangel continued. “Terrible, evil deeds were done in my name. Deeds any godly person must renounce as the foul perversion they were. Enough time has passed for you to recognize that truth, to grapple with it and realize that even though terrible things were done in my name, it was never with my approval.”

Samsyn signed himself with the scepter and felt those words—the words that validated his love for Schueler and the assurance that Zhaspahr Clyntahn had, indeed, perverted the Archangel’s will and intent—flood through him like the sun.

“Yet now that that those days and years have passed, the time has come for a further truth, a deeper truth, to be shared with you. For know this, this world has indeed strayed far afield from the plan for which your forefathers and your foremothers, the Adams and the Eves who left you The Testimonies, were brought forth upon it. You do live in a dark and fallen time, but—” that mighty voice softened, went darker with what could almost have been pain “—it did not fall the way you have been taught it did.”




Part 1 above clearly proves the fact that the apparition has knowledge of contemporary events and the reaction of Father Samsyn: "the assurance that Zhaspahr Clyntahn had, indeed, perverted the Archangel’s will", is as much proof that DW intended to show that as one can wish.

I strongly believe that Part 2 is a prelude to declaring that God's will in bringing humans to Safehold was to first protect them for a while under the CoGa auspices and then have the same Coga actually reveal them the truth about the Federation, Gbaba etc (maybe coached in metaphorical, biblical like terms with demons etc); see the quote below which again to my mind is as much evidence of above intent as one can get (plus sounding quite familiar as the words by which Merlin reveals the truth to Alahnah and Lywis for example have a similar tone you—both of you—are going to have to learn a secret. A secret men and women have died to keep. The most important secret in the entire world.”),
while the ending is an explanation of why the plan failed

“Yet now that that those days and years have passed, the time has come for a further truth, a deeper truth, to be shared with you. For know this, this world has indeed strayed far afield from the plan for which your forefathers and your foremothers, the Adams and the Eves who left you The Testimonies, were brought forth upon it.

As noted this has Operation Androcles written all over it and the Testimony will be precisely that, how the Federation got destroyed (maybe written in hyperbolic, Bible like terms, not necessarily in modern scientific ones with demons rather than aliens etc etc), how God sent humans to Safehold, how His Plan was that the Coga will protect them until they were safe and them reveal them the Truth and send them on their way to destroy the Gbaba (demons) and how Chichiro (and possibly other traitor Archangels) used treachery and what-not to subvert said plan and make Schueler a future big villain (with his book of Punishments which will clearly be abused in said future) to boot, while until now for whatever reason he was blocked from revealing said truth


The first part doesn't really prove that the apparition (or the AI behind it) knows about Clyntahn. Remember that the 'dark ages' on Earth are called that because literacy was largely lost, and we struggle to find out anything about them. The 'dark time' might be the time when technology was unnecessarily kept from Safeholdians.

The 'terrible, evil deeds' might easily be talking about the War Against The Fallen, which includes things like the (presumed) murder of Khody, the murder of Shan-Wei, the nuking of Langhorne.

The reaction of Father Samsyn only shows that he presumes automatically that the apparition is talking about the 'dark time' they've just survived. Not that this is what the apparition IS talking about. Father Samsyn, after all, thinks Archangels are all-knowing.

If we're looking at an AI, it could be programmed like OWL was before self-awareness, with translation programmes, word-recognition and so forth. Schueler could have recorded a couple of different speeches, one for 'people are being burnt at the stake'. It could have simply detected key words in the discussions since it 'woke up' (this is Schueler's own cathedral) which tell it to go to the 'dark times' option.

If it's a virtual personality, all bets are off. :D
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Re: **major spoilers** Speculation about a certain document
Post by Keith_w   » Thu Jan 17, 2019 7:27 am

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Krenn wrote:Chapter 2: The story of how Archangel Shan-Wei was removed from the council in protest, but permitted to establish her own island colony, where she did rebel against the teaching of Langhorne, and reject the Holy Writ, save only for the Divine mandate against making any use of the power of Electricity...


WRT to this portion of your post, I beleive that Shan-Wei and the terraforming team had estabilished the colony in compliance with the original plan before the remainder of the colony returned from deep-space concealment.
--
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Re: **major spoilers** Speculation about a certain document
Post by Bruno Behrends   » Thu Jan 17, 2019 8:05 am

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cnrd22 wrote:Let's see the relevant text:

“You have survived a dark time,” the Archangel continued. “Terrible, evil deeds were done in my name. Deeds any godly person must renounce as the foul perversion they were. Enough time has passed for you to recognize that truth, to grapple with it and realize that even though terrible things were done in my name, it was never with my approval.”

Samsyn signed himself with the scepter and felt those words—the words that validated his love for Schueler and the assurance that Zhaspahr Clyntahn had, indeed, perverted the Archangel’s will and intent—flood through him like the sun.

“Yet now that that those days and years have passed, the time has come for a further truth, a deeper truth, to be shared with you. For know this, this world has indeed strayed far afield from the plan for which your forefathers and your foremothers, the Adams and the Eves who left you The Testimonies, were brought forth upon it. You do live in a dark and fallen time, but—” that mighty voice softened, went darker with what could almost have been pain “—it did not fall the way you have been taught it did.”




Part 1 above clearly proves the fact that the apparition has knowledge of contemporary events and the reaction of Father Samsyn: "the assurance that Zhaspahr Clyntahn had, indeed, perverted the Archangel’s will", is as much proof that DW intended to show that as one can wish.

I strongly believe that Part 2 is a prelude to declaring that God's will in bringing humans to Safehold was to first protect them for a while under the CoGa auspices and then have the same Coga actually reveal them the truth about the Federation, Gbaba etc (maybe coached in metaphorical, biblical like terms with demons etc); see the quote below which again to my mind is as much evidence of above intent as one can get (plus sounding quite familiar as the words by which Merlin reveals the truth to Alahnah and Lywis for example have a similar tone you—both of you—are going to have to learn a secret. A secret men and women have died to keep. The most important secret in the entire world.”),
while the ending is an explanation of why the plan failed

“Yet now that that those days and years have passed, the time has come for a further truth, a deeper truth, to be shared with you. For know this, this world has indeed strayed far afield from the plan for which your forefathers and your foremothers, the Adams and the Eves who left you The Testimonies, were brought forth upon it.

As noted this has Operation Androcles written all over it and the Testimony will be precisely that, how the Federation got destroyed (maybe written in hyperbolic, Bible like terms, not necessarily in modern scientific ones with demons rather than aliens etc etc), how God sent humans to Safehold, how His Plan was that the Coga will protect them until they were safe and them reveal them the Truth and send them on their way to destroy the Gbaba (demons) and how Chichiro (and possibly other traitor Archangels) used treachery and what-not to subvert said plan and make Schueler a future big villain (with his book of Punishments which will clearly be abused in said future) to boot, while until now for whatever reason he was blocked from revealing said truth


This is what I guess too. The book revealing humanity's past, the original mission plan and how Langhorne & Chihiro deviated from it.

Only my speculation goes in a slightly different direction insofar as I doubt the book will claim this was 'God's plan'. Or that the archangels are real Archangels. If the IC created this book (and I think it probably did) then it would stick to the line of not telling lies. Which means above all not claiming a divine origin that does not exist. That does not necessarily mean that the book will explicitly deny the divinity angle - just that it will tell history and let the readers form their own opinion.
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