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[Spoiler] Who else knew about Nimue? Title is not a spoiler

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[Spoiler] Who else knew about Nimue? Title is not a spoiler
Post by PMike   » Tue Jan 15, 2019 2:49 pm

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When Nimue sees Admiral Pei’s recording at the beginning of Off Armageddon Reef, the Admiral says that one other person knows about the Nimue PICA AND that person is going to meet with Langhorne et al the next day...when Pei sets off the pocket nuke. Page 49 of the Nook version.

Could the other person have been Schueler who just happened to miss the meeting? I’ve seen lots of discussion on Schueler and his real role/motives during settlement and the war of the fallen. Little bit of a crazy theory, but certainly within the realm of possibility for an MWW story arc.

PMike

Edit to add, this topic was brought up in 2011. I’m not having good luck navigating back using the search results, but I’ll see if I can link the old thread.

A few posts on this topic from 2011 here: http://forums.davidweber.net/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=465&hilit=Schueler&start=60
Last edited by PMike on Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: [Spoiler] Who else knew about Nimue? Title is not a spoi
Post by Dilandu   » Tue Jan 15, 2019 4:43 pm

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PMike wrote:When Nimue sees Admiral Pei’s recording at the beginning of Off Armageddon Reef, the Admiral says that one other person knows about the Nimue PICA AND that person is going to meet with Langhorne et al the next day...when Pei sets off the pocket nuke. Page 49 of the Nook version.

Could the other person have been Schueler who just happened to miss the meeting? I’ve seen lots of discussion on Schueler and his real role/motives during settlement and the war of the fallen. Little bit of a crazy theory, but certainly within the realm of possibility for an MWW story arc.

PMike


Exactly the question that quite interested me. Especially why commodore wanted this men dead. So, he was NOT the one he could clearly trust, heh? And why both of them were called to Langhorne's obvious important meeting... on which neither Chichiro (Langhorne's right hand!) nor Schueller were presented?
------------------------------

Oh well, if shortening the front is what the Germans crave,
Let's shorten it to very end - the length of Fuhrer's grave.

(Red Army lyrics from 1945)
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Re: [Spoiler] Who else knew about Nimue? Title is not a spoi
Post by DMcCunney   » Tue Jan 15, 2019 5:05 pm

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PMike wrote:When Nimue sees Admiral Pei’s recording at the beginning of Off Armageddon Reef, the Admiral says that one other person knows about the Nimue PICA AND that person is going to meet with Langhorne et al the next day...when Pei sets off the pocket nuke. Page 49 of the Nook version.

Could the other person have been Schueler who just happened to miss the meeting? I’ve seen lots of discussion on Schueler and his real role/motives during settlement and the war of the fallen. Little bit of a crazy theory, but certainly within the realm of possibility for an MWW story arc.

PMike

Interesting idea, but unlikely. Commodore Pei knew about Nimue's PICA, because he was part of a group that suspected Langhorne might not follow the orders he was given for Operation Ark. (IIRC, there's a bit in OAR where Pei and someone else regret that Langhorne got chosen over Halverson as Administrator. Be interesting to know whether Halverson was actually part of the group that left in Operation Ark.)

I'm pretty sure the other person who knew about Nimue's PICA was part of Commodore Pei's Navy/Marine contingent. I can't see him trusting anyone else with that knowledge. (And whoever it was would have to know the PICA was part of the cargo on the vessel that carried it, and see that it did not get into the official cargo manifest where others could learn about it. I just don't see Schueler in that mix.)

Who Schueler really was and what he wanted is an unknown. The official history of Safehold and the War Against the Fallen is in the Book of Chihiro, who had control over the master copy of the Writ in the Temple from which the others were taken. He could rewrite the Writ as he chose. (And on that line, if Schueler did write the Book of Schueler, I strongly suspect the Punishment of Schueler was Chihiro's drop in edit, and not something Schueler wrote.)

Schueler was the Archangel of Justice, complementing Langhorne as the Archangel of Law, and I think his book was about how you obeyed the law, and lived in a just manner. Gruesome punishments don't have to be part of that.

(As for the Fallen, I hope we someday learn what their agenda was, and what they would have done had they won.)
______
Dennis
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Re: [Spoiler] Who else knew about Nimue? Title is not a spoi
Post by PMike   » Tue Jan 15, 2019 5:45 pm

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DMcCunney wrote:
PMike wrote:When Nimue sees Admiral Pei’s recording at the beginning of Off Armageddon Reef, the Admiral says that one other person knows about the Nimue PICA AND that person is going to meet with Langhorne et al the next day...when Pei sets off the pocket nuke. Page 49 of the Nook version.

Could the other person have been Schueler who just happened to miss the meeting? I’ve seen lots of discussion on Schueler and his real role/motives during settlement and the war of the fallen. Little bit of a crazy theory, but certainly within the realm of possibility for an MWW story arc.

PMike

Interesting idea, but unlikely. Commodore Pei knew about Nimue's PICA, because he was part of a group that suspected Langhorne might not follow the orders he was given for Operation Ark. (IIRC, there's a bit in OAR where Pei and someone else regret that Langhorne got chosen over Halverson as Administrator. Be interesting to know whether Halverson was actually part of the group that left in Operation Ark.)

I'm pretty sure the other person who knew about Nimue's PICA was part of Commodore Pei's Navy/Marine contingent. I can't see him trusting anyone else with that knowledge. (And whoever it was would have to know the PICA was part of the cargo on the vessel that carried it, and see that it did not get into the official cargo manifest where others could learn about it. I just don't see Schueler in that mix.)

Who Schueler really was and what he wanted is an unknown. The official history of Safehold and the War Against the Fallen is in the Book of Chihiro, who had control over the master copy of the Writ in the Temple from which the others were taken. He could rewrite the Writ as he chose. (And on that line, if Schueler did write the Book of Schueler, I strongly suspect the Punishment of Schueler was Chihiro's drop in edit, and not something Schueler wrote.)

Schueler was the Archangel of Justice, complementing Langhorne as the Archangel of Law, and I think his book was about how you obeyed the law, and lived in a just manner. Gruesome punishments don't have to be part of that.

(As for the Fallen, I hope we someday learn what their agenda was, and what they would have done had they won.)
______
Dennis


I was with you until reading all the speculation about whether the Schueler appearance was Operation Androcles or something Schueler himself set up. I don't recall much textev, and I haven't looked specifically, that talks about Schueler's role or attitudes prior to the Day of Creation. It just seems to me that RWC/MWW has left open that possibility that Schueler was either in cohoots with Admiral Pei and Pei Shan-Wei or possibly changed sides after the Rakurai.
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Re: [Spoiler] Who else knew about Nimue? Title is not a spoi
Post by DMcCunney   » Tue Jan 15, 2019 8:18 pm

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PMike wrote:I was with you until reading all the speculation about whether the Schueler appearance was Operation Androcles or something Schueler himself set up. I don't recall much textev, and I haven't looked specifically, that talks about Schueler's role or attitudes prior to the Day of Creation. It just seems to me that RWC/MWW has left open that possibility that Schueler was either in cohoots with Admiral Pei and Pei Shan-Wei or possibly changed sides after the Rakurai.

I don't believe there was TextEv about Schueler's attitudes prior to the Day of Creation. We have TextEv of Shan-wei arguing her case with Langhorne and Bedard, with Chihiro present, but I don't recall Schueler being mentioned.

I don't see Schueler in cahoots with Shan Wei and Commodore Pei. My own suspicion is that Schueler didn't know Chihiro built the OBS and pulled the trigger, and assumed Langhorne had ordered it and Pei's strike that killed Langhorne and Bedard was in retaliation.

Neither he nor Chihiro were present when Langhorne and company got nuked. Chihiro was Assistant Administrator and had been working to supplant Langhorne and take over. Langhorne's death created a void he stepped into happily. When the War Against the Fallen broke out, he was in control. Schueler would support him as the legal colony Administrator and work with him. He was probably number two in the hierarchy fighting the Fallen. I suspect other surviving Archangels were keeping their heads down and out of the lines of fire.

It was made clear elsewhere that the core of the Fallen were "Those who looked to Kau Yung before his Fall", the former naval and marine personnel aboard Pei's escort ships who served as a planetary police force after their ships were discarded. The other Archangels weren't trained fighters and wouldn't have been much use against Pei's ex-Navy and Marine people. (And I wonder about the chap who handily defeated Kohdy and started him wondering about what side he was on. Given what Kohdy was before emigrating to Safehold, that was an accomplishment.)

The question is whether Schueler subsequently learned that it was Chihiro who built the UBS and took out Shan Wei and the Alexandria archive without Langhorne's approval. I suspect he would have been thoroughly outraged and turned against Chihiro, but what could he actually do? Chihiro was in full control. Attempting to go public and argue the point would probably have gotten him killed. He might not mind dying defending a principle, but he probably would have minded dying for nothing, and wouldn't have gone public unless he thought there was some possibility it would accomplish something. Since there wasn't...
______
Dennis
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Re: [Spoiler] Who else knew about Nimue? Title is not a spoi
Post by Weird Harold   » Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:26 pm

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DMcCunney wrote:...I suspect he would have been thoroughly outraged and turned against Chihiro, but what could he actually do? ...


Something simple, like changing Chihiro's password to the OBS after it was used against the SSK convent.

That may well be why the OBS hasn't responded to anything. It may have "called home" and triggered the final scene of TFT. It's not enough to bet civilization on, but the OBS has been "silent" far too long if it is capable of autonomous operation.
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Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just find the right questions.)
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Re: [Spoiler] Who else knew about Nimue? Title is not a spoi
Post by Joat42   » Wed Jan 16, 2019 3:47 am

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Weird Harold wrote:
DMcCunney wrote:...I suspect he would have been thoroughly outraged and turned against Chihiro, but what could he actually do? ...


Something simple, like changing Chihiro's password to the OBS after it was used against the SSK convent.

That may well be why the OBS hasn't responded to anything. It may have "called home" and triggered the final scene of TFT. It's not enough to bet civilization on, but the OBS has been "silent" far too long if it is capable of autonomous operation.

Or perhaps (as I suggested in another thread) the key contains the AI (among other things) that's supposed to run the OBS and the OBS is currently running in local maintenance mode.

---
Jack of all trades and destructive tinkerer.


Anyone who have simple solutions for complex problems is a fool.
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Re: [Spoiler] Who else knew about Nimue? Title is not a spoi
Post by SilverbladeTE   » Wed Jan 16, 2019 4:33 am

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I don't have a lot to add, but I do like and agree with much of what's been said :)


I suspect Chihiro went rogue, but I'm not sure why
I have a sneaking suspicion it's got.something to with why North Harchong REALLY took over South Harchong

if it was only about the War Against the Fallen, why let Harchong keep the American area? (New York/Yu-Kwau)
I think it's part of why he set EVERYTHING up

Chihiro is normally a Japanese female name, but Safehold one seems to be male, I dont know nationality
Nor do we know that timeline's Earth history to guess any lingering grudges etc, except China was a single nation with no colonies etc...which is kind of odd

We know there's a lot of Asian heritage across Safehold (partial epicanthic fold is common)
We know military had been greatly run down before Gbaba had appeared so its likely that racial, religious and national tensions had died down a LOT from what we have.
Alas extremists, xenophobes and lunatics are found everywhere and while military are usually checked pretty well to keep.such divisive gits out, the same can't be said for politics or bureaucracy

China vs USA issues? Some old grudge, feeling Asian colonists had been screwed over by Westerners...maybe they actually were!
Though it seems unlikey considering Pei Shan Wei was in charge of colonial terraforming...then again maybe he killed her and her team to HIDE something they'd found?
She hid the Moyrah Lode...maybe she or others found something under what is now South Harchong, could even be something we'd not expect like...ruins once nuked millenia ago by the Gbaba and Chihiro, realizing the entire project or way they had twisted it, was a huge waste and he cracked up from guilt?

maybe he's mad from psychic shock of the horror they all went through....or wanted to be a God-Emperor?
I'm sure RFC knows and it will be entertaining ;)
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Re: [Spoiler] Who else knew about Nimue? Title is not a spoi
Post by DMcCunney   » Wed Jan 16, 2019 9:01 am

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Weird Harold wrote:
DMcCunney wrote:...I suspect he would have been thoroughly outraged and turned against Chihiro, but what could he actually do? ...
Something simple, like changing Chihiro's password to the OBS after it was used against the SSK convent.
If I'm Chihiro, I'm going to be real fussy about who gets to do stuff like that. I might not let *anyone* do it. Why should I?

And if Schueler didn't know the PW to begin with, the remaining lesser angels waiting for all the Adams and Eves to die so they could edit the Testimonies, and who triggered the strike on the SSK convent would be unlikely to tell him. They were Chihiro's people, and he likely gave detailed instructions about what they should do after he left, Giving OBS access to anyone else who didn't already have it would be high on the Thou Shalt Not list, if not in first place.
That may well be why the OBS hasn't responded to anything. It may have "called home" and triggered the final scene of TFT. It's not enough to bet civilization on, but the OBS has been "silent" far too long if it is capable of autonomous operation.
What would the OBS phone home about? Unless it detects something that its core programming says is unacceptable and drop a rock on it, it has no need to communicate back to Safehold. I suspect there is a "heartbeat" signal that indicates it's up and running in nominal state that goes back to ground, but what beyond that might be required?

And we don't really know what sort of communication it might have with ground. If there is any, it will be tight beam laser you have to physically intercept, Merlin's remote would have to know where to look to do so, and would likely get swatted like his earlier attempts were.
______
Dennis
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Re: [Spoiler] Who else knew about Nimue? Title is not a spoi
Post by DMcCunney   » Wed Jan 16, 2019 12:32 pm

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SilverbladeTE wrote:I don't have a lot to add, but I do like and agree with much of what's been said :)

I suspect Chihiro went rogue, but I'm not sure why
I have a sneaking suspicion it's got.something to with why North Harchong REALLY took over South Harchong
I think Chihiro was rogue from the start.
if it was only about the War Against the Fallen, why let Harchong keep the American area? (New York/Yu-Kwau) I think it's part of why he set EVERYTHING up
That the name of the original enclave in Harchong is New York doesn't mean it was an American area. The population of Harchong is strongly ethnic Chinese, but there was no reason for the enclave name to reflect that. (Especially after Bedard re-programmed the colonists so they had no memory that that were colonists. That the original enclave name was New York was just on of those inexplicable things the Archangels did but didn't explain.

And I don't think Chihiro controlled which colonists got assigned to and awakened in which enclaves, so talking about "why he set EVERYTHING up" may be mistaken.
Chihiro is normally a Japanese female name, but Safehold one seems to be male, I dont know nationality
Chihiro was male, but his provenance isn't specified. I asked David at a con what he was before Operation Ark and he said a high government official and a historian (the latter explains the Order of the Quill part of his order.) David didn't say, but I suspect he leaned hard on his government position to get himself posted to Operation Ark.

I'll be curious to figure out what history he was drawing upon for his planning, but we don't know enough about what the further changes he made to Langhorne's plans were. He certainly wanted a thoroughly authoritarian static "fly in amber" society on Safehold, likely wouldn't care about the way North Harchong or Desnair turned out, and might have approved of Zhaspar Clyntan's attempt to put the Inquisition in control of Mother Church, himself in control of the Inquisition, and end up as the absolute ruler of all Safehold who determined what God's will was and what was permissible as far as God was concerned.

I'd bet Chihiro only cared that mankind was still alive on Safehold, had jumped into a hole and pulled the hole in after itself, and wouldn't encounter the Gbaba again. He *didn't* care about the sort of lives men would lead.
Nor do we know that timeline's Earth history to guess any lingering grudges etc, except China was a single nation with no colonies etc...which is kind of odd
China never really had colonies. They has lots of emigrants who moved elswhere and set up ethnic Chinese enclaves that assimilated just enough with whoever already lived there to get along and do business, but were still firmly Chinese. (I live in NYC. There are several different Chinatowns scatted across the boroughs with folks who never learned to speak English because they didn't need to. Everyone they encounter on a daily basis is also Chinese, so the question will what dialect of Chinese they speak. There are five major dialects I'm aware of that are largely mutually incomprehensible, but the written language is the same for all so they can manage. Cantonese is apparently rich in curses. :P)
We know there's a lot of Asian heritage across Safehold (partial epicanthic fold is common)

We know military had been greatly run down before Gbaba had appeared so its likely that racial, religious and national tensions had died down a LOT from what we have.
If things had calmed down enough for there to be a world government, Earth didn't need a big military. It's role was police force, survey of other real estate men might settle, piracy suppression, and the equivalent of Coast Guard. It was dramatically expanded after the Gbaba were encountered and it had a war to fight.
Alas extremists, xenophobes and lunatics are found everywhere and while military are usually checked pretty well to keep.such divisive gits out, the same can't be said for politics or bureaucracy
Yep. The usual problem for the military in places where civilian control is the norm is managing the politicians who give them marching orders so the orders aren't hopelessly stupid.
China vs USA issues? Some old grudge, feeling Asian colonists had been screwed over by Westerners...maybe they actually were!
Though it seems unlikey considering Pei Shan Wei was in charge of colonial terraforming...then again maybe he killed her and her team to HIDE something they'd found?
She hid the Moyrah Lode...maybe she or others found something under what is now South Harchong, could even be something we'd not expect like...ruins once nuked millenia ago by the Gbaba and Chihiro, realizing the entire project or way they had twisted it, was a huge waste and he cracked up from guilt?
I don't think lingering US/China issues would have an effect at that point. I don't doubt there was regional rivalry the world government had to referee, but I do doubt lingering resentments that would flare up on Safehold. (And in any case, the colonists got mind-wiped by Bedard and did not remember who they were or where they came from when they were awakened.)

And I don't think Chihiro knew about the the stuff like the Moriah Lode that she discovered and didn't mention to Langhorne. How would he?

I also really doubt the notion that the Gbaba had nuked Safehold millennia ago. Among other things, I think what the Gbaba did to destroy worlds inhabited by other species would leave traces that were still clear and highly visible long after they finished and went home.

David made it clear elsewhere that the Gbaba had their own interstellar polity of uncertain size, but were settled down and generally stayed in their own volume of space. The Terran Federation had the misfortune of expanding into their space and triggered their genocidal "Another sentient species. Exterminate! Exterminate!" reflex. They would leave their own space to chase and kill the intruders, but weren't likely to stick around once they had. So I don't see them ever getting to Safehold in the distant past.

We don't know how far Safehold is from Terra, but we can assume it's in the opposite direction from the one the Federation was going when they encountered the Gbaba. Operation Ark's orders were probably "Go as far away as you can as fast as you can get there, but keep an eye out for suitable habitable worlds as you go. What made them decide Safehold was a decent choice would be a matter of how far away they felt was a reasonable place to stop and plant a colony.

maybe he's mad from psychic shock of the horror they all went through....or wanted to be a God-Emperor?
I'm sure RFC knows and it will be entertaining ;)
He certainly seemed to be among the traumatized. He might not have been averse to being God-Emperor either.

Another question I have is how much of a "Man overstepped his bounds and deserved to get stomped by the Gbaba. We must insure man cannot overstep his bounds again!" There's enough "People are no damned good" sentiment floating around now, with the corollary that they must be controlled for their own good to keep them out of trouble. Of course, some of the folks who hold those views see themselves as uniquely suited to be the controllers who get to tell people what to do "for their own good". :P I think some of that factored into the command crew politics about Safehold.

And given how deeply religion is embedded as a force in the series I wonder a bit about the Gbaba, and whether they developed a notion before they went arguably senile that $DEITY created them in it's image and any other species was a creation of their $DEITY's evil twin and must be destroyed in consequence.
______
Dennis
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