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[Spoiler] What else Operation Androcles could be

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Re: [Spoiler] What else Operation Androcles could be
Post by Robert_A_Woodward   » Tue Jan 15, 2019 1:54 am

Robert_A_Woodward
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Dilandu wrote:
Krenn wrote:

Those sorts of arguments could last FOREVER. and the entire point of the exercise isn't to find useful answers... it's to develop the habit of trying to apply historic and theological reasoning, unto the actions and remnants of the Archangels themselves... which will inevitably make the Archangel's legacy much more vulnerable.



Nah. You forgot, that Holy Writ was DESIGNED to have as little internal contradictions as possible. Her authors have all humanity cultural and religious experience to work with, not to mention - extremely developed computing capabilities to search exactly for such contradiction.


The only crack I can see that can possibly exploited inside the Proscriptions is detecting Stellar parallax. That won't be easy.
----------------------------
Beowulf was bad.
(first sentence of Chapter VI of _Space Viking_ by H. Beam Piper)
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Re: [Spoiler] What else Operation Androcles could be
Post by Dilandu   » Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:31 am

Dilandu
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Robert_A_Woodward wrote:The only crack I can see that can possibly exploited inside the Proscriptions is detecting Stellar parallax. That won't be easy.


A pribability, yes. Proscriptions were clearly intended to mqintain tech level below XIX century, and may not include explanation for that (because if Safeholdian have tech high enough to wonder about stellar parallax, then the Proscriptions already went down the drain)

And yes, it would clearly be a major breaking point - because it would be the first clear dissonanse between the Writ and the observable world. It is clearly non-politucal even (the movement of stars could hardly be linked with any political agenda), but it would clearly demonstrate that Writ contain at least SOME false data.
------------------------------

- Who would won in battle between strawman Liberal-Democrat and strawman Conservative-Republican?
- Scarecrow from Oz; he was strawman before it became political.

P.S. - And he have Russian twin, to watch his back)
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Re: [Spoiler] What else Operation Androcles could be
Post by Joat42   » Tue Jan 15, 2019 4:02 am

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Dilandu wrote:
Robert_A_Woodward wrote:The only crack I can see that can possibly exploited inside the Proscriptions is detecting Stellar parallax. That won't be easy.


A pribability, yes. Proscriptions were clearly intended to mqintain tech level below XIX century, and may not include explanation for that (because if Safeholdian have tech high enough to wonder about stellar parallax, then the Proscriptions already went down the drain)

And yes, it would clearly be a major breaking point - because it would be the first clear dissonanse between the Writ and the observable world. It is clearly non-politucal even (the movement of stars could hardly be linked with any political agenda), but it would clearly demonstrate that Writ contain at least SOME false data.

Hmm, depending on how observant people where and what information was gathered in the early days after nearly a 1000 years stellar drift is noticeable in constellations.

I'm thinking of paintings for example, if it can be shown that paintings of the sky has stars changing position gradually over the years you have an opening there. There are several problems associated with that though, although I guess the Royal College has advanced math to such a degree it should be possibly to crunch the data to show that some stars have moved.

---
Jack of all trades and destructive tinkerer.


Anyone who have simple solutions for complex problems is a fool.
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Re: [Spoiler] What else Operation Androcles could be
Post by SCC   » Tue Jan 15, 2019 11:40 pm

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Dilandu wrote:
Krenn wrote:
But can you imagine someone daring to publicly accuse the PHYSICAL TEMPLE OF ZION of being a blatant violation of the proscriptions? Electric Lighting! Subtle radio signatures!


Er, what violation? Prosctiptions were written for mortals, not Archangels, and the Temple is Archangels creation.

It goes beyond that: How does the IC PROVE that the lighting in The Temple is electrical?
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Re: [Spoiler] What else Operation Androcles could be
Post by Krenn   » Wed Jan 16, 2019 1:29 am

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SCC wrote:It goes beyond that: How does the IC PROVE that the lighting in The Temple is electrical?


Highly sensitive magnetic compasses or magnetic pendulums. Crystal radio earpieces. certain types of ambient-powered lightbulbs. anything that can detect electro-magnetic activity without obviously containing it's own source of electric power.

Or, more simply, just create a forgery of one of Shan-Wei's bunkers, then "discover" it. Complete with interior lighting that's exactly the same as what's in the temple, and lots of highly convenient confessions labeling everything, carefully diagramming and explaining the sinful use of electricity in each case....
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Re: [Spoiler] What else Operation Androcles could be
Post by Dilandu   » Wed Jan 16, 2019 2:12 am

Dilandu
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SCC wrote:It goes beyond that: How does the IC PROVE that the lighting in The Temple is electrical?



Actually, this is irrelevant, because Archangels could use whatever they wanted. Its for mortals, some principles were forbidden to use.
------------------------------

- Who would won in battle between strawman Liberal-Democrat and strawman Conservative-Republican?
- Scarecrow from Oz; he was strawman before it became political.

P.S. - And he have Russian twin, to watch his back)
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Re: [Spoiler] What else Operation Androcles could be
Post by Dilandu   » Wed Jan 16, 2019 2:15 am

Dilandu
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Posts: 1932
Joined: Sat May 07, 2011 12:44 pm
Location: Russia

Krenn wrote:
Or, more simply, just create a forgery of one of Shan-Wei's bunkers, then "discover" it. Complete with interior lighting that's exactly the same as what's in the temple, and lots of highly convenient confessions labeling everything, carefully diagramming and explaining the sinful use of electricity in each case....


And what exactly it would prove beyond that Shain-Wei is very good in luring humans into sin?

Again: you made the same mistake, attributing electricity in Holy Writ with some "demonic power". But it is not - it is the power, available for Archangels, but forbidden for mortals. It is perfectly obvious that Shain-wei could use such power - she was an Archangel, after all! - but for mortals it would be sin of disobeying the God.
------------------------------

- Who would won in battle between strawman Liberal-Democrat and strawman Conservative-Republican?
- Scarecrow from Oz; he was strawman before it became political.

P.S. - And he have Russian twin, to watch his back)
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Re: [Spoiler] What else Operation Androcles could be
Post by Krenn   » Wed Jan 16, 2019 12:44 pm

Krenn
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Posts: 95
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Dilandu wrote:
Krenn wrote:
Or, more simply, just create a forgery of one of Shan-Wei's bunkers, then "discover" it. Complete with interior lighting that's exactly the same as what's in the temple, and lots of highly convenient confessions labeling everything, carefully diagramming and explaining the sinful use of electricity in each case....


And what exactly it would prove beyond that Shain-Wei is very good in luring humans into sin?

Again: you made the same mistake, attributing electricity in Holy Writ with some "demonic power". But it is not - it is the power, available for Archangels, but forbidden for mortals. It is perfectly obvious that Shain-wei could use such power - she was an Archangel, after all! - but for mortals it would be sin of disobeying the God.


I don't think the text evidence works that way...

an ebook search found two relevant references to "electricity", once in Armageddon Reef, once in Fiery Trials...

Armageddon Reef:
The kinetic bombardment platforms which had been used against Shan-wei were still there, sweeping silently in orbit around the planet. It was impossible to be certain, but Merlin was virtually positive the platforms were tasked to bombard and destroy any ground-based energy signature which might indicate that Safeholdians were straying from the dictates of The Book of Jwo-jeng’s limitations on technology. The energy footprint of an electrical generating plant, for example.

The exact level of emissions necessary to activate them was impossible to estimate, but The Book of Chihiro clearly warned that the same Rakurai which had smitten the evil Shan-Wei waited to punish anyone so lost to God as to attempt to follow in her footsteps. According to the Writ, the lightning associated with natural thunderstorms was God’s reminder of the destruction awaiting those who sinned, a sort of inverted mirror image of the symbology of the rainbow’s promise to Noah following the Deluge.


TFT:

“Because it’s looking for electricity?” Merlin suggested. “I’ve always thought it’s significant that the Book of Jwo-jeng specifically anathematizes electricity whereas the Proscriptions are defined in terms of what’s allowable. They don’t say ‘You can’t do A, B, or C’; they say ‘You can’t do anything besides A or B.’ But not about electricity. And in addition to what she had to say about it, Chihiro says ‘You shall not profane nor lay impious hands upon the power the Lord your God bestowed upon his servant Langhorne.’” His lips curled in distaste as he quoted from the Book of Chihiro. “That’s why I’ve always assumed electricity would almost have to be a red line as far as any automated system under the Temple was concerned.”

“And I tend to agree with you. But don’t forget your own point—Chihiro anathematized it in terms of the ‘Rakurai’ Langhorne used to punish Shan-wei for her defiance of God’s law. Lightning’s sacred, unlike wind, water, or muscle power, so its use in any way is expressly forbidden.”

“But Chihiro goes on to specifically describe electricity, not just lightning,” Merlin pointed out. “People may call the damned things rakurai fish, but they don’t flash like rakurai bugs. They just shock the hell out of anything that threatens them! But Chihiro uses them as a ‘mortal avatar’ of Langhorne’s ‘Holy Rakurai’ placed on earth to remind humans of the awesome power entrusted to him by God.

That’s why the Writ says rakurai fish are sacred in the eyes of God, but where’s the ‘lightning bolt’ in their case? He flat out tells people they have the same power as the Rakurai, and he didn’t have to. For that matter, the Writ even talks about static electricity and links that to Langhorne’s Rakurai, too.”

It was his turn to shake his head.

“There’s got to be a reason that Chihiro gassed on about it that long and that thoroughly, and the most likely one was to make damned sure no one even thought about fooling around with it.”


Reading that carefully, I think that means a few things:

1. MOST of the proscriptions may not technically apply to the Archangels, but the prohibition against electricity is universal, and DOES apply.

2. As a matter of Doctrine, Electricity IS the Rakurai, and the Rakurai is Langhorne's special power. Anything Electrical results in pain, danger, and eventually orbital bombardment. There is no way to use electricity for anything BUT inflicting pain and bombardment on yourself, and the right to summon the bombardments are reserved to Archangel Langhorne.

3. So, playing with electricity doesn't JUST get you bombarded, it is ALSO a violation of Langhorne's holy responsibility to USE bombardment. By using electricity, you bombarded yourself, because that's what electricity IS. And Bombarding yourself is a sinful violation of Langhorne's right to conduct bombardments personally.

4. And, importantly, this is apparently where Shan-Wei fell astray: As a matter of doctrine, she apparently tried to USE miniature electricity-and-or-linked-miniature-bombardments for some personal purpose, in violation of Langhorne's ultimate responsibility to control bombardments himself, So Langhorne called forth the ENTIRETY of the Rakurai, in order to Bombard her entire island as punishment.

5.The lesson here is that EVEN ARCHANGELS CAN'T USE ELECTRICITY, and all forms of electricity result in bombardment. And bombardment is reserved only to Langhorne, which humans shall not touch. ever. Although the writ apparently doesn't use the WORD bombardment, preffering words like "Rakurai".

The people living in the Temple don't even use the word 'electricity' to refer to all the minor miracles the temple contains: they apparently honestly believe that all of those miracles are a DIFFERENT type of divine favor, not related to electricity at all, because profaning electricity with human hands is absolutely forbidden, and all forms of electricity bring only pain, destruction and death anyway.

In fact, if Merlin could get away with it, a really AWESOME prank would be if he could somehow plant a static-electricity-generating invisible film coating onto the light switches inside the temple... thus creating instant 'proof' that the light switches WERE electrical, and therefore forbidden to the hands of man, on pain of pain and very small bombardments....
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Re: [Spoiler] What else Operation Androcles could be
Post by Robert_A_Woodward   » Thu Jan 17, 2019 12:16 am

Robert_A_Woodward
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Posts: 217
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Dilandu wrote:
Krenn wrote:

Those sorts of arguments could last FOREVER. and the entire point of the exercise isn't to find useful answers... it's to develop the habit of trying to apply historic and theological reasoning, unto the actions and remnants of the Archangels themselves... which will inevitably make the Archangel's legacy much more vulnerable.



Nah. You forgot, that Holy Writ was DESIGNED to have as little internal contradictions as possible. Her authors have all humanity cultural and religious experience to work with, not to mention - extremely developed computing capabilities to search exactly for such contradiction.


(I have decided to expand on my previous reply)

In my earlier reply, I noted that detecting stellar parallax was the only crack I could see. Unlike the other "working" books of the writ (i.e., how to do stuff and what stuff is), the Book of Hastings includes deliberately false information. But there is a serious problem to solve before anybody on Safehold could detect stellar parallax. As of 900 YoG, I am certain that there are people on Charis who could build instruments adequate for the task (as long as they are checking near stars). But there is no theologically legitimate reason for anybody to do this.
----------------------------
Beowulf was bad.
(first sentence of Chapter VI of _Space Viking_ by H. Beam Piper)
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Re: [Spoiler] What else Operation Androcles could be
Post by Krenn   » Thu Jan 17, 2019 1:39 pm

Krenn
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Robert_A_Woodward wrote:
Dilandu wrote:

Nah. You forgot, that Holy Writ was DESIGNED to have as little internal contradictions as possible. Her authors have all humanity cultural and religious experience to work with, not to mention - extremely developed computing capabilities to search exactly for such contradiction.


(I have decided to expand on my previous reply)

In my earlier reply, I noted that detecting stellar parallax was the only crack I could see. Unlike the other "working" books of the writ (i.e., how to do stuff and what stuff is), the Book of Hastings includes deliberately false information. But there is a serious problem to solve before anybody on Safehold could detect stellar parallax. As of 900 YoG, I am certain that there are people on Charis who could build instruments adequate for the task (as long as they are checking near stars). But there is no theologically legitimate reason for anybody to do this.


There are a few other things they could test... law of gravity can be tested using a torsion spring, a balance rig, and some giant, ~16-ton lead spheres.


The Coriolis effect can be measured with a good sniper-rifle or highly accurate light artillery piece.

suborbital rockets could make some interesting points about orbital mechanics.

Telescopes good enough to detect any nearby gas giants, especially ones with moons, would be helpful. detecting certain types of eccentric-orbit comets might be helpful.

If you can measure apparent local gravity to three significant figures, you actually detect the difference created by spin when standing at the equator versus standing near the poles.

anything involving the old germ/bacteria/flys/maggots isolation/sterilization experiments might be useful.

Too tired to think straight. I'll look at this thread again tommorow.
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