[SPOILER] Bren guns, smaller calibres, and dragons, oh my!

SilverbladeTE wrote:****SNIP****

Ok I put this post in spoilers tag so I can note that in Through Fiery Trials, for hunting dangerous game, they carry a .625 round and rifle that has all the same stats as a .600 Nitro express, which is a actually a reasonable thing to carry considering how appallingly dangerous Safehold's critters can get
But those aren't rifles most folk can use, takes either big person or training to cope with those
Still rather have rapid fire shotgun though as said 10 guage bronze slugs, in tight country be better than a double rifle I think.

If I remember right, it mentions that the rifle is over 15 pounds to help absorb some the the recoil. And Stefyny is still afraid that it will break her collar bone if she fires it from the prone position.

Yup! Hence I'd rather rapid fire shotgun, much easier to handle
Damage and penetration from bronze, pointed slugs from a 10 gauge would be catastrophic[/quote]


Ever shot a 10 gauge? There's no such thing as a 'light' or target load for them and none of them are fun. I use one for CAS matches. I swapped to BP so I could safely down load it to a target load level.

Slugs would be a major leap backwards for dangerous game from the express rifle. Sure, you have around 1100gr (2.5 oz. converted into grains) of projectile but you'll also only have about 12-1400fps of velocity. In other words, you're flipping sides of the argument.

Whether it's repeating or not isn't going to make much difference. The double rifle is used to give an instantly available second shot for those times when you don't have time to cycle an action. Like when dealing with charging Cape Buffalo (which has been known to hunt the hunters).

Jtg452

Oh I guess you're right on 10 guage being uncomfortable with a big slug, well I can assume only having used 12 but read etc about such
3 1/2 magnum 12 gauge is about same as 10 gauge medium load?
However....

#1 they do have the shotguns already in stock
Making bronze slugs is easier than new big bore double guns for many guardsman

#2 we're talking about bodyguards...so what happens if Human enemies attack? they have to load out with that in mind

#3 I've read of folk using 12 and 10 gauge with slugs as back up/stopping with hunting parties
I don't know if that's the "best" but it's available!

#4 heavy double barrels are....HEAVY, wanna lug a 16+ lb rifle? Eeek no thanks :p

I'd think that the first wartime smokeless powder cartridge would be a full power sniping cartridge because IMO the first users would be the scout snipers. That cartridge would probably be an adaptation of an existing black powder cartridge. Historical comparisons would probably be the 11x59R Gras (BP) and 8mm Lebel (smokeless) cartridges. The main reason for this is that they wouldn't have to totally retool their munitions production pipeline during wartime. I'll call this first smokeless cartridge the type 0.

After the Jihad ends there would probably be an after action review, on the orders of the inner circle (behind the scenes) if for no other reason. This would be the opportunity for a 'modern' rimless bottlenecked cartridge to get introduced. Again the first users are likely to be scout snipers, for much the same reason, and again this would be a full power cartridge with spitzer bullet. I'll call this type A.

The next issue is machine guns. In my opinion the first charisian machinegun would probably be something functionaly like the Maxim or Vickers, for many of the same reasons, namely the ability to use black powder ammunition (initially), belt feeding and probably a lack of trust in air cooled automatic fire. Initial development would be with the type 0 cartridge or its BP predecessor, though development could be used to nudge engineers in the direction of what would become the type A cartridge. Once the type A cartridge comes around it should also be adopted as the standard MMG cartridge.

Now for general infantry use the type A is probably overkill, for the same reasons that 8mm Mauser, .30-06 and their ilk were. However, Delthak doesn't really have to restart from scratch. A real life analogy could be 8mm Mauser and 8mm Kurz cartridges. 8mm Kurz was developed by basically cutting and necking down the 8mm Mauser case and installing a shorter bullet. Doing this allowed Germany to keep its ammunition production and barrelmaking factories largely unchanged due to the same casehead and barrel interior specs (rifling etc). I'll call a similar adaptation of the type A the type B.

For infantry weaponry the type B cartridge should do well in rifles, carbines and light MGs. I would imagine the weapons being the analog of the early AK-47s and RPKs, either milled or stamped depending on how far the inner circle can push technology (especially welding) along, though gas operation isn't a requirement (think of the StG45(M)). Depending on barrel length, the basic weapon would be either a rifle or carbine, possibly with a folding stock available for people working in confined quarters like marines and (later) paratroopers. The light machine gun would, analog to the RPK, have a longer heavier barrel and bipod but otherwise essentially be the same weapon. One big advantage to this setup in the field would be magazine interoperabilty. LMG gunners could start off with one or two large drums and then switch to regular infantry magazines.

Once rifle development is underway the development of a lighter GPMG in the type A cartridge could be pushed. It would remain a support weapon but be more mobile than the Maximoid MMGs, with squads being generally equipped with type B cartridge weapons. Type A cartidge weapons would be the GPMG, marksman's rifles and sniper weapons.

If the inner circle does want heavy machineguns developed in the absence of tanks, using the navy might be the way to go about it, as small boat, anti-small-boat and anti-airship weaponry.

ErikM,
Weren't they introducing smokeless powder in At The Sign Triumph?
If no one else CAN produce smokeless that reduces need for a push...but for their over all plan the Inner Circle would want everyone to try it, as it would advance technology AND take up a lot of R&D time and money from potential enemies (and give it to allies who thus wouldn't suffer the "research lag")

AKs....suck, sorry :p
Very serious accuracy issues unless they went with much later like 1990s designs and that would mean more complex machining etc

Also for a professional military you want chromed barrels
Especially for any fast firing gun ...which isn't as easy to do without electricity one way or another being an issue?

If Charis tech is up to it, and EM 2 with improvements would be much better

AK or bolt action rifles could be given to allies who have less sophisticated training and poorer logistics as the reliability of those designs would fit more with North Harchong, for instance?


Yeah water cooled medium machine guns would make sense as their first full automatic weapon, and those can handle larger calibres

Why not change to a far far more efficient round in one go rather than make a hash of it? As said off load all the older guns to secondary units and allies
6.5mm Grendel works perfectly well out to 800 metre for accuracy in good rifle, so from main battle rifle to squad and light vehicle machine gun it does the job

You maybe right and AK series be more within the practical technological limits, though I think Charis is really getting to 1930s tech base bar electrical demands
but even a reduced 8mm is gonna be a hefty chunk!

Marksmen in a normal unit do not need 1000+ yard bolt action rifles, they need 400 - 800 yard semi autos

If they go to rimless they can design different calibre bullets to work off the SAME case, like is done with .50 Beowulf and others, hm?
That could allow a family of weapons based of similar parts thus less expense etc?


My thoughts are that Charis is far more like a modern Western military, so precision semi auto or rapid bolt weapon is better
Ie small scope for accuracy boost and intermediate round like Grendel
Charis IS the optical instrument maker on Safehold

Bolt actions work best over long terrain and for extreme reliability of cold filthy battlefields and less skilled troops

AK would be better in urban/forest (it's not so "super reliable" as some think, just reliable and much easier for local repair, the latter being the real important issue, well least as far as I know you may well know much better than I )

Note the US Marines new squad machine gun goes BACK to the Bren gun kind of idea as a boxed magazine capable of using squad mates ammo as well is so much easier and reliable all around