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***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Trials

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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by isaac_newton   » Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:49 am

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Weird Harold wrote:
Dilandu wrote:P.S. Still, there are a point that puzzled me... Someone besides Kau-Yung knew about Nimue PICA. Someone invited to the meeting with Langhorne at the same time. Someone, who Kau-Yung was willing to kill to protect the secret - which means, somebody he did not trust.


Is this in addition to the programmer who bypassed the time limit on autonomous operation?



Well - there is another possibility. Someone brave that he did trust.

I imagine that at these significant meetings the heads of departments would be expected to go with underlings. Had Kau Yang done something unexpected - like turning up with no staff - that might have rung alarm bells.

So maybe this was some self sacrificing person who agreed to go to give cover for this blow?
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by Bruno Behrends   » Fri Jan 11, 2019 5:18 am

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Judging by the clues the book sets up in the previous chapters, it is nearly certain that the 'Schueler appearance' is the Inner Circle's doing:

As has already been rightly pointed out upthread, Nahrmahn - at the end of the the 'August Year of God 915' chapter in Chisholm shows Cayleb and Sharleyan something Owl, Paityr, Nynian and him have cooked up to 'kick off the final phase of the Narmahn plan'.

DW does not show us what Nahrmahn shows Cayleb and Sharleyan but he gives us several hints - very telling hints IMO.

Consider: Nahrmahn's first sentences, the ones he introduces the topic to his listeners - and more importantly to us readers - are actually: "You're right," Nahrmahn agreed. "And, speaking of archangels that haven't turned up yet, Owl and I would like to show you what we've been working on with ..."

DW couldn't have been much clearer than this! (In fact the only way he could have been clearer was if he had explicitly shown us what Nahrmahn was about to show Cayleb and Sharleyan. And he couldn't do that since the 'Archangel appearance' is obviously meant to be a surprise and climax of the book - not to mention a hook for us to feverishly wait for the next installment.

But - short of actually giving everything away in advance the wording 'speaking of archangels that haven't turned up' is a pretty unambiguous clue.

And in the same Nahrmahn/Cayleb & Sharleyan scene Nahrmahn (and DW speaking through him to us) doesn't stop there:

Several people already mentioned that he also says: "Somehow, I think the real Schueler's going to be spinning in his grave."

So 'Archangels that didn't show up' not only makes Nahrmahn think of showing Cayleb and Sharleyan this - thing - at this point - but the scene also makes it clear that it has to do specifically with one of those 'archangels': Schueler. And something that would make said Schueler spin in his grave.

On top of that Nahrmahn is obviously enjoying the plan immensely "His avatar's smile was remarkably broad ... and evil."

Putting one over Schueler - one of the two 'archangels' the Inner Circle hates most - would put that smile on Nahrmahn's face.

This brings me to another point: this is something Nahrmahn wants to 'show' Cayleb and Sharleyan. Of course one can theoretically 'show' a plan. But a plan is an abstract concept and the verb show does not fit an abstract concept very well. If an abstract concept was meant by Nahrmahn, verbs like 'present' or 'explain' would fit better. No: This whole scene seems like Nahrmahn is fiendishly happy to 'show' them something in a much more literal sense! And what's a more literal way of 'showing' something - than showing a hologram?

I am sure: Nahrmahn was just about to show them the hologram of Schueler and his little speech and that's what he and Owl and Paity and Nynian had been working on.

If all of that isn't enough: In the chapter directly leading up to the 'archangel appearance' chapter Cayleb and Sharleyan authorize Nahrmahn to initiate the second stage of the 'Nahrmahn plan' by starting 'Operation Androcles'.

Don't tell me they - in the chapter directly leading up to the climax of the story - authorize an operation codenamed after Schueler's first name (a name which DW suspiciously reminds us of several times earlier in the book)and then that authorization and operation name has nothing to do with the actual operation that follows directly after. (Or if you tell me don't expect me to believe you.)

As for the objection that the use of Federation tech to make this 'archangel appearance' possible would be too risky as it might be picked up by scanners it has already been pointed out that federation tech has been used before - even right inside Zion.

Also take note that this 'appearance' does not take place inside or near the temple. Rather it seems someone selected the place for this 'appearance' exactly so that the spot is a) very important to the church spiritually/ceremonialy but also b) not near the temple and not riddled with sensors.

I bet the cathedral - as cathdrals are wont to - is constructed of rather thick stone and the event took place in it's innermost core (the sanctuary) so that helps too in shielding any emissions. And bright as it all was: light in and off itself is not prohibited by the script. So light emissions aren't really critical in the first place.

There is another - more obscure - clue too:

The second to last chapter (the one in which they authorize 'Operation Androcles') also contains a discussion about electricity and how the prohibition against it hinders their further tech developments.

Now as it happens the first chapter of the book contains a rather lengthy discussion between Merlin and Nahrmahn about how specifically Chihiro was the one 'archangel' whose book keeps stressing the prohibition against electricity.

And lo and behold: in his grand appearance in the last chapter the Schueler apparition emphasizes that Chihiro lied. In fact the whole appearance seems to be specifically designed to undermine Chihiro.

Now when you say that an archangel apparition - even without suspicious emissions being picked up - should really trigger any threat assessment programs in the temple I hear you.

That is a valid objection.

I have three things to say to that:

1) DW needs hooks to continue the story and ramp up the suspense so from a storytelling perspective something that causes the sleeping giant to stir is a good thing.

2) would the hypothetical AI under the temple necessarily know that the Schueler apparition wasn't a real Schueler apparition? I mean: where is the difference tech-wise? Both are created with federation tech. Can it rule out Schueler did not in fact have a secret plan stowed away (just like many posters upthread seem to think?)

3) the conversation between Merlin and Nahrmahn in the first chapter of the book stresses that something obviously is missing in the temple AI's threat assessment and response. Otherwise it should already have 'woken' and done something. This is the same argument Dilandu makes really, but turned on its head. Yes, it should have. But it hasn't. Ergo: Something has gone wrong there.

Taking this into account it is thinkable (at least in-world) that even a reported archangel apparition does not in fact wake the temple any more than it has already.

(Personally I suspect the temple AI or whatever is hidden there will wake eventually. I suppose we all think that. To misquote Chekhov and GRRM: 'You don't hang a secret temple basement on the wall unless you intend to use it.' But in-world the characters don't have to follow this logic.)
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by isaac_newton   » Fri Jan 11, 2019 5:52 am

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Bruno Behrends wrote:Judging by the clues the book sets up in the previous chapters, it is nearly certain that the 'Schueler appearance' is the Inner Circle's doing:

SNIP
Several people already mentioned that he also says: "Somehow, I think the real Schueler's going to be spinning in his grave."

So 'Archangels that didn't show up' not only makes Nahrmahn think of showing Cayleb and Sharleyan this - thing - at this point - but the scene also makes it clear that it has to do specifically with one of those 'archangels': Schueler. And something that would make said Schueler spin in his grave.

On top of that Nahrmahn is obviously enjoying the plan immensely "His avatar's smile was remarkably broad ... and evil."

Putting one over Schueler - one of the two 'archangels' the Inner Circle hates most - would put that smile on Nahrmahn's face.
SNIP


a very interesting analysis!

one nitpick - I dont think that [after seeing Paityr Wyslyns recording of Schuller] it is S that thay hate. I seem to remember that they now felt that that Chihiro had 'ammended' his book after his death.

[Edit]
I bet the cathedral - as cathdrals are wont to - is constructed of rather thick stone and the event took place in it's innermost core (the sanctuary) so that helps too in shielding any emissions. And bright as it all was: light in and off itself is not prohibited by the script. So light emissions aren't really critical in the first place.


Have you seen any of the late english gothic cathedrals? They are mainly windows! :-)
I was trying to get over that maybe this light had unusual properties that would act as a tale tale. I agree that light in itself is nothing, but brightness and other things, e.g. 'interesting' frequency shifts & modulations could be a dead giveaway!

Traffic analysis is the phrase I think - so that AI's could become aware that something TF was in process
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by Bruno Behrends   » Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:28 am

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isaac_newton wrote:
Have you seen any of the late english gothic cathedrals? They are mainly windows! :-)
I was trying to get over that maybe this light had unusual properties that would act as a tale tale. I agree that light in itself is nothing, but brightness and other things, e.g. 'interesting' frequency shifts & modulations could be a dead giveaway!


I had hoped that little bit would be overlooked :lol:

Thank you though.
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by isaac_newton   » Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:05 am

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Bruno Behrends wrote:
isaac_newton wrote:
Have you seen any of the late english gothic cathedrals? They are mainly windows! :-)
I was trying to get over that maybe this light had unusual properties that would act as a tale tale. I agree that light in itself is nothing, but brightness and other things, e.g. 'interesting' frequency shifts & modulations could be a dead giveaway!


I had hoped that little bit would be overlooked :lol:

Thank you though.


Hehe :-)

I suppose to be fair, the more 'glassy' Cathedrals do tend to be in the south of england - though people from Durham might disagree there!

Of course, our cathedrals might not survive too well in the middle of Russia say!
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by Dilandu   » Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:07 am

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Bruno Behrends wrote:3) the conversation between Merlin and Nahrmahn in the first chapter of the book stresses that something obviously is missing in the temple AI's threat assessment and response. Otherwise it should already have 'woken' and done something. This is the same argument Dilandu makes really, but turned on its head. Yes, it should have. But it hasn't. Ergo: Something has gone wrong there.


In the same conversation Nahrmahn berated Merlin for testing the Rakurai Array patience with steam engines exactly for the abovementioned reason. Either Nahrmahn for some reason completely reversed his opinion, or it seems like contradiction.
------------------------------

- Who would won in battle between strawman Liberal-Democrat and strawman Conservative-Republican?
- Scarecrow from Oz; he was strawman before it became political.

P.S. - And he have Russian twin, to watch his back)
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by noblehunter   » Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:09 pm

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I'm inclined to think Schueler's appearance is not the work of the inner circle. I would have expected a lot more angst about impersonating an Archangel. I prefer to think RFC is being clever by having the protagonists be wrong about the predicted day of return than have the protagonists reverse policy with so little hesitation.
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by Julia Minor   » Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:01 pm

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Bruno Behrends wrote:
As for the objection that the use of Federation tech to make this 'archangel appearance' possible would be too risky as it might be picked up by scanners it has already been pointed out that federation tech has been used before - even right inside Zion.


Would the "Visitation" really have been that obvious to a sensor system? It was flashy to human perception, no question there, but there was a filter in place from the Day of Creation to allow angels and archangels, and later on mortal seijins, to use a certain amount of Federation tech without getting a Rakurai upside the head. If Merlin taking his skimmer supersonic doesn't trip the filter (or did but whatever's wrong with the Temple meant no response) a recorded hologram and low-powered tractor beam moving a single book shouldn't trip it.
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by PeterZ   » Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:12 pm

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Bruno Behrends wrote:
As for the objection that the use of Federation tech to make this 'archangel appearance' possible would be too risky as it might be picked up by scanners it has already been pointed out that federation tech has been used before - even right inside Zion.
Julia Minor wrote:
Would the "Visitation" really have been that obvious to a sensor system? It was flashy to human perception, no question there, but there was a filter in place from the Day of Creation to allow angels and archangels, and later on mortal seijins, to use a certain amount of Federation tech without getting a Rakurai upside the head. If Merlin taking his skimmer supersonic doesn't trip the filter (or did but whatever's wrong with the Temple meant no response) a recorded hologram and low-powered tractor beam moving a single book shouldn't trip it.

I'm thinking the excess photon emissions reflect a well known pattern of angelic visitations from the early days. Whatever sensors that exist must have that pattern in their memory. Recognizing the similarities between the patterns should be pretty straign forward.
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by Bruno Behrends   » Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:55 pm

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Julia Minor wrote:
Bruno Behrends wrote:
As for the objection that the use of Federation tech to make this 'archangel appearance' possible would be too risky as it might be picked up by scanners it has already been pointed out that federation tech has been used before - even right inside Zion.


Would the "Visitation" really have been that obvious to a sensor system? It was flashy to human perception, no question there, but there was a filter in place from the Day of Creation to allow angels and archangels, and later on mortal seijins, to use a certain amount of Federation tech without getting a Rakurai upside the head. If Merlin taking his skimmer supersonic doesn't trip the filter (or did but whatever's wrong with the Temple meant no response) a recorded hologram and low-powered tractor beam moving a single book shouldn't trip it.


I think so too. At least when they are in the right place - or rather not in the wrong place.
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